Disagreement With Inspector

[Jim W in Tampa]

Not sure about other states but here it is common to see lots of lighting outlets and fan outlets blanked off except for the required ones.Mine never work untill after the final.Thats because they have no electric.Electric comes after CO.Yes its stupid but that how we do it.

 

[dnem]

Not sure about other states but here it is common to see lots of lighting outlets and fan outlets blanked off except for the required ones.Mine never work untill after the final.Thats because they have no electric.Electric comes after CO.Yes its stupid but that how we do it.

You have no power for the final ?

How does your inspector check your recepts ?
He plugs in his tester to see which test lights he gets and .... ?
How can you final without power ?

In my department exterior egrees lights by man doors are required to be working to get an occupancy [210.70(A)(2)(b)]. And our state building code specifies lighting that must be available on stairs, so stairway lighting must be working for the final [and controlled according to 210.70(A)(2)(C)]. All recepts must be working [and show tester lights that signify proper wiring connections]

David

 

[George Stolz]

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work

(A) Unused Openings Unused cable or raceway openings in boxes, raceways, auxiliary gutters, cabinets, cutout boxes, meter socket enclosures, equipment cases, or housings shall be effectively closed to afford protection substantially equivalent to the wall of the equipment. Where metallic plugs or plates are used with nonmetallic enclosures, they shall be recessed at least 6 mm ( 1/ 4 in.) from the outer surface of the enclosure.

Until you install "something" it is not a outlet.

Its an unused opening.

All the boxes in the original post had covers on them. Therefore, they had no unused openings. They were outlets, though.

 

[allenwayne]

Not sure about other states but here it is common to see lots of lighting outlets and fan outlets blanked off except for the required ones.Mine never work untill after the final.Thats because they have no electric.Electric comes after CO.Yes its stupid but that how we do it.

You have no power for the final ?

How does your inspector check your recepts ?
He plugs in his tester to see which test lights he gets and .... ?
How can you final without power ?

That`s just how it is done sometimes the poco doesn`t even have underground to the meter when a final is done.No checking receptacles just a visual that they are installed and breakers match units etc.lighting installed as required for min.Blanks installed thats pretty much it.They do push paint contamination on meters and panels anddisc clearance but that is pretty much how 100`s of finals are done each and every day in tampa area.

 

[charlie b]

That is a good catch and I wish I thought of it.

Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug.

IMO that pretty much settles the debate of what is an outlet....at least this time.

In my mind it settles the debate, but it settles it in my favor, not yours.

The definition of "receptacle" says it is a contact device installed at the outlet. That does not mean that there was an "outlet" in existence before the contact device was installed. IMO the "outlet" came into being when the receptacle (or the luminaire or whatever) was connected to the wires that entered the box. Up until that time, it was an unused opening. And if you do nothing more than connect more wires to it, run those wires somewhere else, and put a cover over the box, then it will never be an "outlet." Not by any stretch is a junction box that contains nothing but wires and wire caps an "outlet."

 

[kqresq]

The Building Code has minimum requirements for general lighting based on occupancy. Approved plans (considered to be extended code requirements by many AHJs) denote fixture types and fixture schedules. The NEC tells you how the fixtures are to be installed.

 

[iwire]

The definition of "receptacle" says it is a contact device installed at the outlet. That does not mean that there was an "outlet" in existence before the contact device was installed.

Charlie that just makes no sense it is a catch 22.

IMO the "outlet" came into being when the receptacle (or the luminaire or whatever) was connected to the wires that entered the box.

Its a fine opinion but IMO is still incorrect.

For now forget about receptacles and stick with the lighting outlet as that is where we started.

The definition of lighting outlet tells us in no uncertain terms that a lighting outlet is an outlet intended for the connection of a luminaire.

That means it is a lighting outlet before I install the luminaire on the box.

What makes it a lighting outlet and not a simple J-box?

The fact the installer intends it to at some undetermined point in time have a luminaire fastened on it.

if you do nothing more than connect more wires to it, run those wires somewhere else, and put a cover over the box, then it will never be an "outlet."

I agree 100% with that if I have not intended it to be a lighting or receptacle outlet.

I may install a lighting outlet (an outlet intended for a luminaire) and at that point it is a lighting outlet. If things change and I have to relocate it the lighting outlet will change from a lighting outlet to a simple j-box.

Not by any stretch is a junction box that contains nothing but wires and wire caps an "outlet."

Are you sure you are looking at the definitions with an unbiased mind?

I respectfully do not think you are, apply your own rules.

Bob

 

[jim dungar]

Bob,

A box with capped wires is simply a junction box. It is not an outlet until something is added to it.

For example: Suppose there is a 1 gang rectangular box containing capped wires, mounted 12" AFF with a blank cover on it. What is this box called?

How about a duplex receptacle instead? Now, per 100, it is a receptacle outlet?
What about an aisle way "wall sconce" instead? Now, for sure it is a lightiing outlet?
Now suppose a surface raceway extension box is added, now what is it? Would you a not call it a junction box?

 

[iwire]

Jim I think you and Charlie are ignoring the very simple definitions of lighting outlet and receptacle outlet.

Article 100

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder, a luminaire (lighting fixture), or a pendant cord terminating in a lampholder.

I don't see any other way to spin it, intended is not the same installed. Never has been never will be.

The IRS does not accept my intention to pay, they want me to pay.

I have much respect for both of you and when you both disagree with me I am no fool, I stop in my tracks and I think and ponder the possibilities.

At this point after sleeping overnight on this and seeing kqresq post I have come to my own opinion.

IMO you and Charlie are mistaken on this one.

It can happen you know :wink: :lol:

Anyone else brave enough to chime in on this? :?:

Bob

 

[iwire]

For example: Suppose there is a 1 gang rectangular box containing capped wires, mounted 12" AFF with a blank cover on it. What is this box called?

It depends on what the installer intends it to be.

It may be a j-box, receptacle outlet or lighting outlet.

Only the installer can tell us for sure. 8)

It may be a lighting outlet today and in the future it may be receptacle outlet.

JMO, (and I am sticking to it :lol: )

Bob

 

[charlie b]

The definition of "receptacle" says it is a contact device installed at the outlet. That does not mean that there was an "outlet" in existence before the contact device was installed.

Charlie that just makes no sense it is a catch 22.

Not at all.

• Go to the supply store and buy a 2x4 metal box. Do you have an "outlet"? No.
• While you are still at the supply store, buy a 20 amp receptacle. Do you have an "outlet"? No.
• Nail (or otherwise attach) the box to a stud. Do you have an "outlet"? No.
• Connect conduit to that box. Do you have an "outlet"? No.
• Run wires to the box from a circuit breaker. Cap the wires. Do you have an "outlet"? No.
• Remove the wire caps and attach the receptacle to the wires. Do you have an "outlet"? Yes.

There is no "catch 22" here.

 

[iwire]

I have posted my views on this subject and any of the members can look at both sides and make their own decisions. 8)

Bob

 

[charlie b]

Not by any stretch is a junction box that contains nothing but wires and wire caps an "outlet."

Are you sure you are looking at the definitions with an unbiased mind? I respectfully do not think you are. Apply your own rules.

I wasn't clear in my statement. Mea culpa.

Let me try again.

Consider a 2x4 box attached to a stud. There is a conduit coming in from the top, and another leaving from the bottom. Wires enter from the top, and different wires leave from the bottom. The two sets of wires are connected to each other by wire caps. There is nothing else inside the box. The box has a cover that can be opened, even after the drywall is installed.

Now I repeat, not by any stretch is this "junction box" an "outlet."

 

[iwire]

I wasn't clear in my statement.

Charlie I think you have been clear, we just disagree on this subject.

It's not that unusual. :lol:

 

[charlie b]

For now forget about receptacles and stick with the lighting outlet as that is where we started. The definition of lighting outlet tells us in no uncertain terms that a lighting outlet is an outlet intended for the connection of a luminaire. That means it is a lighting outlet before I install the luminaire on the box. What makes it a lighting outlet and not a simple J-box? The fact the installer intends it to at some undetermined point in time have a luminaire fastened on it.

"Intended" by whom, and at what point in time? What if the installer has different intentions than the homeowner? What if the installer puts a box and some wires in a small attic space, with the intent that it can be used for a light in the attic, but the homeowner says he will never go into that attic and never wants a light there? Does the "lighting outlet" become no longer a "lighting outlet," by virtue of a change in intent? What if the next owner wants a light there. Does it now revert to being a "lighting outlet," by virtue of another change in intent?

The code is not written for it to apply differently, each time some new person buys a house. But the code is written to allow different rules to apply, each time some new homeowner wants to change the physical configuration of the house. I have a dining room that I will eventually turn into a kitchen. The present kitchen will become a pantry. When that happens, the rules that govern the existing kitchen will no longer apply, and I won't have to have two SA circuits serving that room anymore.

Since you asked me to "apply my rule," I would point out two things:

• First, the definition of "lighting outlet" does not say, "an outlet that is capable of supporting the connection of a luminaire." It also does not say "an outlet that contains wires of a size and number matching those normally used for connecting luminaires." It says, as you pointed out, "intended for. . . ." I submit that until you purchase the luminaire, and sign a contract to have an electrician install it, then "intent" does not exist.

• Secondly, and most importantly, a "lighting outlet" is defined in no uncertain terms as being first and foremost an "outlet." It's an outlet with other special words applied to it. But it is an outlet. As I have already said, it is my opinion that a box with wires and no device connected to the wires is not an outlet. Therefore, a box that may someday get a luminaire attached to it, but that only has wires and a faceplate at the moment, cannot be a "lighting outlet," because is it not an "outlet."

 

[charlie b]

Sorry, Bob. I had three comments to make, and I wanted them separate, since they addressed separate issues. But it took me a while to type it all out. So it looks like I kept making my case after you were ready to call it a day.

I can stop now, and leave it at the classic "agree to disagree" stage.

 

[iwire]

Sorry, Bob.

No problem at all, I am on my way out now but I will come back and read your added posts carefully.

I can stop now, and leave it at the classic "agree to disagree" stage.

We can certainly do that.

We could also take a poll, of course the result will be meaningless as to the actual answer, none the less I would find it interesting as I think you might as well.

I leave it up to you if we poll or not and I also leave it to you to phrase the question and responses if we do poll.

Gotta run, I will check back later.

Bob

 

[raider1]

For what it is worth, I will have to agree with Iwire.

If I have a room that has the required natural illumination according to IRC R303.1, and I install a ceiling box with wires run to a switch by the door, must I have a luminaire installed to meet the requirements of 210.70(A)?

If that is the case you must always install a luminaire at a final inspection if a lighting outlet is required.

JMHO, Chris

 

[charlie b]

If that is the case you must always install a luminaire at a final inspection if a lighting outlet is required.

I think the question here starts with the "required lighting outlet" already having a luminaire installed. The problem is that there is a second "not required" box, with wires, in a location that makes it clear that it would be a good place for a luminaire, but with no luminaire yet installed. The issue is whether that second box must have a luminaire installed before final, or in the alternative, to have the wires pulled out of the box (back to the circuit breaker or to the next upstream junction box) before final.

Does that alter your views?

 

[raider1]

Charlie,

Lets say that illumination is not required because we have natural illumination. Does the required lighting outlet need to have a luminaire installed?

Chris