Disagreement With Inspector

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iwire said:
The definition of lighting outlet tells us in no uncertain terms that a lighting outlet is an outlet intended for the connection of a luminaire.

That means it is a lighting outlet before I install the luminaire on the box.

What makes it a lighting outlet and not a simple J-box?

The fact the installer intends it to at some undetermined point in time have a luminaire fastened on it.
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I almost hate to jump into this one, but fun's fun. :)

"A lighting outlet is an outlet....." says the hymnbook.

The hymnbook also says an outlet is "a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment."

So....if there's no utilization equipment being supplied (...), then there's no outlet. And if there's no outlet, there's no lighting outlet, either.

The intent you've honed in on serves only to distinguish between different sorts of outlets, Bob. It is, basically, what turns an outlet into a lighting outlet.
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Funny thing happens on this interpretation....intent becomes de facto irrelevant. If it's not an outlet until current is taken to supply utilization equipment, then it's not a lighting outlet UNTIL a lampholder, luminaire, or pendant cord is actually installed. Which means that you can only signify intent by installing a lamp instead of, say, a duplex receptacle. Pointing and saying "hey, that's supposed to be a lamp box" won't cut it. :)

Chris Knight
Syracuse NY
 
iwire said:
We could also take a poll, of course the result will be meaningless as to the actual answer, none the less I would find it interesting as I think you might as well.
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Not a bad idea, but it might be tricky to write the question. I am not certain on what exact point(s) you and I disagree, and what exact point(s) one or more others disagree with either you or me. This might turn out to be one of those arguments along the lines of, "The grass is green. No it isn't, the sky is blue." :?

Perhaps I could word the poll as follows:
  • If you believe the grass is green, check here ___.
  • If you believe the sky is blue, check here ___.
Of course, I may need to add in other possible responses than just "Yes" or "No" or "Check Here." For example, I may need to add the response, "What is grass?" for the benefit of those just coming out of an Alaska winter, and the response "What is sky?" for the benefit of those of us who are just coming out of a Seattle winter. :wink: :lol:
 
raider1 said:
Lets say that illumination is not required because we have natural illumination. Does the required lighting outlet need to have a luminaire installed?
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Help me on this one, Chris. We won't have "natural illumination" at night. Is there some NEC article (or exception) that says we can eliminate the "required lighting outlet" if we substitute "natural illumination"? I don't think the NEC accepts the IRC as a superseding or overriding document.
 
Charlie,

My bad on the IRC, I was just trying to point out that illumination is not required as a general rule in the NEC, just required for all habitable rooms in the IRC. :oops:

So back to my point about the required lighting outlet according to the NEC. I can see your point that a outlet is a point at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment, but if no current is taken does it stop being an outlet? If I have a receptacle that has nothing plugged into is it still an outlet?

Chris
 
I must say, Iwire you have all my respect and admiration. But must agree with Charlie on this one. To nitpick Charlie's reasoning,
As I have already said, it is my opinion that a box with wires and no device connected to the wires is not an outlet
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A Device is a unit of an electrical system that is intended to carry but not utilize electrical energy. The explanatory text uses the wording 'distribute or control but do not consume,' and includes switches, receptacles, lampholders. I disagree with Charlie's use of words here. 'The two sets of wires are connected to each other by wire caps. There is nothing else inside the box.' Wire nuts are devices, and Charlie's box does have devices installed.

That said, he has the 'outlet' point. Outlet means utilization equipment to the authors. If it was intended to include 'fittings used to join raceways,' the authors would not have gone to the pain to discretely mention the two types in 314.16, nor would they have bothered to write separate sections 314.27 Outlet Boxes and 314.28 Pull and Junction Boxes and Conduit Bodies.

If I remove a fluorescent fixture, leaving a blank plate, and then use the box to connect into cans, that box 'was' an outlet box and 'is' a junction box. Different flavors.
 
charlie b said:
Not a bad idea, but it might be tricky to write the question. I am not certain on what exact point(s) you and I disagree, and what exact point(s) one or more others disagree with either you or me.
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:lol:

Precisely why I 'graciously' passed the buck...err I mean torch onto you. :lol:
 
peteo said:
I must say, Iwire you have all my respect and admiration. But must agree with Charlie on this one.
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Thank you and no problem and the same goes for all, I will not feel insulted if you disagree with me.

We are all here to learn. 8)
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
If one is to read the definitions for, receptacle outlet, and lighting outlet, it puts this more into context of what the original poster's question is alluding to.
A box with wiring is, if you will, an OUTLET. Now install a lighting fixture and it is a lighting outlet. Install a receptacle instead of a lighting fixture and it is a receptacle outlet. Any box with wiring is an outlet (potentially current at some future time may be drawn from it)
There is no definition of a junction box in the NEC, so therefore what exactly is a junction box??? If I splice conductors in a lighting outlet box, is is a lighting outlet box.... a junction box, or is it a lighting-junction box :wink:
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I am always amazed when a topic which I feel is not so arbritary gets so crazy here.

As my prior post has mentioned, an outlet is a point where current is taken.

It is a lighting outlet if a light is installed. It is a receptacle outlet when a receptacle is installed.

If neither a light or a receptacle is installed, it is an outlet...hence a box with/without a splice in it and has access, is an outlet. (current can be taken from it)

Why make it so difficult?
 
OUTLET: opening,passage,vent,exit,channel,hole,pipe,orfice,aperture,egress

means,conduit,instrument,vehicle.

These are the root meanings of the word, OUTLET

for your referance.
 
Lighting outlet?

Lighting outlet?

I agree that the inspector is WRONG!

What if a "luminaire" or fixture WERE installed? What if the lamp were NOT operational? Is this STILL against codes? I know of NO such code requirement?

What about removing "luminaires" or fixtures in an existing home? Say the customer no longer wishes to have a "chandelier" above the diningroom table? What would he "require" as a "replacement" then?

HE is the one who MUST show exactly WHAT code is being violated. I can see NO code violations? :p
 
switchbox?

switchbox?

It DOES contain a device. It does "control" current, it is NOT part of a self contained apparatie, yet It does NOT utilize current.

Is the "outlet" the point of "consumption" of the current, - OR is the point of "outlet" at the switch, where the current is "let out"?

Until the switch is closed, and the current is "let out" then the "luminaire" cannot become a point of "cunsumption"?

Therefore, - WHERE is the current "let out", defining the "outlet" See what I mean?

At EXACTLY what point is the current "let out"?
:D
 
Re: switchbox?

Re: switchbox?

electric_instructor said:
It DOES contain a device. It does "control" current, it is NOT part of a self contained apparatie, yet It does NOT utilize current.

Is the "outlet" the point of "consumption" of the current, - OR is the point of "outlet" at the switch, where the current is "let out"?

Until the switch is closed, and the current is "let out" then the "luminaire" cannot become a point of "cunsumption"?

Therefore, - WHERE is the current "let out", defining the "outlet" See what I mean?

At EXACTLY what point is the current "let out"?
:D
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It may never let current out.No place in NEC or any state laws that i know of say you must buy electric.We have houses here that are not even hooked up to utilities and have a C O.Does this mean we have not met nec rules because nothing works ?Guess we have no outlets.
 
This may have already been posted, if not, I think this would satisfy the original question at the top.

410.12 Outlet Boxes to Be Covered
In a completed installation, each outlet box shall be provided with a cover unless covered by means of a luminaire (fixture) canopy, lampholder, receptacle, or similar device.
 
Gmack said:
This may have already been posted, if not, I think this would satisfy the original question at the top.
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It's a nice try, Gmack, but I don't think it would satisfy the Inspector. Recall from the OP that the Inspector would have been willing to accept having the box there, and a cover on the box, so long as there were no wires in the box. What the Inspector wanted to enforce was the notion that if there were wires in the box, then you had to have a luminaire attached to the box.
 
raider1 said:
If I have a receptacle that has nothing plugged into is it still an outlet?
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Yes you do, because it fits the definition of outlet. It is a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. That does not require that current be taken 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

On the other hand, if there are capped off wires in a box, and nothing else, and if the box is covered with a blank plate, then current can never, never be taken from that point. It is not an outlet, and will not become an outlet until you attach a receptacle, a luminaire, or something else that enables a piece of utilization equipment to take current.

Jim W in Tampa said:
So are we saying that it is not a lighting outlet until it consumes electric and puts out light ?
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It is not a "lighting outlet" until it is first an "outlet." Having just capped off wires does not make it an outlet. But mounting a luminaire and attaching its wires to the wires in the box turns the box simultaneously into an "outlet" and a "lighting outlet," regardless of the position of the on/off switch.
 
peteo said:
Wire nuts are devices, and Charlie's box does have devices installed.
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No they are not, and no it doesn't. Wire caps do not carry current. They enable current to flow from one wire to another wire, by physically holding the two wires together. I don't know if anyone makes wire caps with just plastic, but they could. Any metal part of the internals of a wire cap serves the purpose of giving strength to the bond between the wires. The cap's metal parts (if any) are not "intended to carry . . . electrical energy."
 
charlie b, yes I see your point but I don't see how this "inspector" could prevail against:

410.12 Outlet Boxes to Be Covered
In a completed installation, each outlet box shall be provided with a cover unless covered by means of a luminaire (fixture) canopy, lampholder, receptacle, or similar device.

The inspector asked for a code reference. I think the one above would have stalled him in his tracks. As it clearly refutes his claim.

Clearly you cant install the above mentioned without wires being present and if a device is not installed this code specifies a "cover". A box cover.
 
Gmack said:
The inspector asked for a code reference. I think the one above would have stalled him in his tracks. As it clearly refutes his claim.
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I'm with you on this one. But I don't think you have enough to convince this Inspector. I think he would say that you can pull the wires back and cover it for now, and then pull wires in when you are ready to install the luminaire.
 
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