Do Engineers Have A Clue?

[kpepin]

This seemed VERY odd to me but maybe I'm wrong.
I'm working on an addition to a school. There are 3 floors with a 480/277 Volt and 120/208 Volt panel on each floor. I was double checking my plans against my switchgear submitals when something caught my eye. On one floor, the Engineer is asking for a 125 Amp 480 Volt panel to handle a few lighting circuits and the transformer for the 120/208 V Panel. So far so good... Then they want provisions for 4 future circuit breakers. 2 are 225 Amp and 2 are 100 Amp. I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree and I don't have a fancy Engineering degree but does this just seem a little pointless to anybody else?

 

[peter d]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Most engineers have a clue, a few don't.

What you describe does seems a little odd (based on the limited details you provided), so it seems like a good time for an RFI.

 

[bob]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I can see where there might have some confusion regarding the specs. Just because the engineer has a degree does not make him or her infallible. I am sure a call from you to clear up the problem would be appreciated. Better to clear it up now rather that wait.

 

[iggy2]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

If they are provisions, it wouldn't seem to make any difference. It's very probable that the provisions ratings are "left over" from the last job, and the engineer just never got around to, or didn't see the point of editing the provisions ratings.

In the interest of full discolsure, I'm a PE in 5 states and the USVI....

 

[garrisonm1]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

im actually in school for electrical engineering, im working in the field right now for abount 8 years, and most of the people in my class never worked in the field at all, my coworker and i notice alot of times engineers put things on drawings that are either impossible to do or is the hard way to do things. to me i think any engineer should actually have some hands on traing.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

To ?make provisions? is not to ?add load.? If there are provisions for a 100 amp breaker, can they not be used for a smaller breaker? I would have stopped at requesting provisions for the breakers, without giving the breaker ratings. It is not within my formal training to know what size of breaker fits into what size of slot, nor at what point the provisions for one size breaker cannot support the installation of a breaker with a higher or lower rating. Anything that an engineer learns of the electrician?s art must be learned on the job.

This may have been the result of a typo or an oversight, or the engineer might have simply wanted to give the owner some choices. But I think the title of this thread is a bit harsh on the engineering profession.

Charles E. Beck, P.E.

 

[paul]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Originally posted by charlie b:
...I think the title of this thread is a bit harsh on the engineering profession.

Charles E. Beck, P.E.

Nahhh. They need the harsh criticisms of us lektrishuns.

 

[rattus]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I used to criticize engineers too until I became one. I would agree though that some experience twisting wire would be very beneficial to engineers doing the planning.

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Off Topic-

I'd like to have a word with the engineers that designed my pickup truck.
It takes me half a day, and special tools, just to change the spark plugs.

And to change the timing belt on our little car, I have to jack it up, remove the right-front wheel and a piece of the inner fender panel.

Ed

 

[rattus]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Ed, your point is well taken, but what if non-engineers designed your truck? Part of the blame can be placed on the marketeers who demand impossible things to please the public.

And, it seems that some dealers charge about $200 to change the timing belt. Of course, you can't see whether they changed it or not. My newest car, a 4-cyl Toyota, does not have a timing belt.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Ooooooo. I've been awaiting a moment to throw this in: I put a 350 into my S-10 Blazer. Yeah, I can't hardly get to my distributor, rear spark plugs, etc, but I sure can't blame engineers!

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

A typical panel (but not all) requires that breakers of equal frame size be mounted across from each other. If the engineer wanted the ability to add any breaker or lug kit larger than 100A (such as a future 110A sub feed) the panel would need to have (2) 225A spaces.

Maybe I am just making things up though, after all I am just an engineer.

 

[kpepin]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I know the thread title is a little harsh but you have to admit, there are usually things that are on a set of prints that make the guys in the field say "what were they thinking?"

I don't mean to bash all engineers. I too am going back to school for an engineering degree. On the other hand, I've also been working in the field for 15 years so a lot can be said for some hands on experience.

To address the frame size issue, that is a good point. Although this 125 Amp panel (as I said) is feeding a few 20A lighting circuits and has a 70 Amp breaker for the transformer for the 120/208 panel. Adding a 110 Amp sub-panel out of this panel is just not practical for the location in the building (not to mention there isn't any room left in the school to add a panel anywhere).

Thanks for the input and I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[charlie]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I am not an engineer but I have done a lot of engineering work and have been called an engineer at my company along with other assistant to engineers and technicians. As far as the linemen are concerned, we are all engineers. It doesn't matter to some of the crews who wrote the work order for a particular job, the engineer screwed it up . . . period. On most orders, the crew will find something to complain about and it is always the engineers fault.

I found the best way around this was to get out and talk to the guys on the crews to see what I could have done differently to write better orders. Most of the time they just wanted to gripe about something but sometimes it was legitimate (imagine that). I spent quite a bit of time explaining the standards to the crew and the fact that I had to follow the standards and so did they.

The upshot of all this is that we gained a mutual respect for each other and most of the grumbling stopped on both sides. That didn't stop the occasional error on either side but we worked better together.

Does this story apply here? Maybe.

 

[iwire]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Originally posted by kpepin:
I know the thread title is a little harsh but you have to admit, there are usually things that are on a set of prints that make the guys in the field say "what were they thinking?"

Yes, often on a set of prints I will find something that makes me ask what were they thinking? A good solution is to ask the engineer in a professional manor "What where you looking for here?"

Now lets be honest, are we perfect out in the field?

Any electrician looking over another electricians work is going to find something that makes them ask what where they thinking.

There are many code compliant ways to install wiring, most electricians I know believe only the way they do it themselves is the 'right way'.

I was involved with a large smoke evac system and saw some problems, we all got together, myself, the GC, the mechanical, electrical engineers and a fire safety consultant.

At first the meeting was a little adversarial, no one wants to hear their design will not work as expected. Once we got to know each other and realized we all had the same goal it went well. The problems where addressed and the GC sent a nice letter to the shop I work for complementing me for keeping cool at the meeting and pointing out a problem that would have showed up at the FDs inspection.

My point is get to know these guys and try to understand things from their side.

Think of how you say things, would you want someone looking at your work saying "That looks like @#*^" or would you rather they ask why you did it that way?

JMO, Bob

 

[charlie b]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Originally posted by garrisonm1: I?m actually in school for electrical engineering, I?m working in the field right now for about 8 years, . . .

Originally posted by kpepin: I too am going back to school for an engineering degree. I've also been working in the field for 15 years. . . .

I am certain that you both will be far better engineers, for having had the practical hand-on experience. Best of fortune to you both.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I occasionally do stuff that is not maybe intuitivly obvious in my designs and serves no useful purpose at present.

Often these are provisions for things that are planned or may happen down the road. Sometimes the end user may not want the reason for these provisions on the drawings.

I see a lot of this kind of stuff on government contract drawings. They often have plans for stuff down the road and want to make it less expensive to install, but in a very technical way it might not be considered part of the current contract. but in the interest of future cost savings, its much cheaper to do it now.

 

[lady sparks lover]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Mr. Kpepin,

I happen to take offense to this thread and how you have stated your opinions. Just becauase a person has engineer or PE by there name, does mean they can do a job and do it right.

I happen to be an EIT, with a degree in Architectural Engineer from Penn State, and I am darn good at what I do. I'll be taking my PE in April..and this trade will be glad to have me, and you would be happy to have my drawings if we were to work together. I'll toot my horn because I have worked out in the field myself, so you'd be glad to hire me. (note to fellow poster, I'm just confident, not arrogant...

[ December 20, 2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: lady sparks lover ]

 

[bthielen]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

It's so easy to criticize when one has 20-20 hindsight. I pulled wrenches and wire for a time then did field service and now designing. It has given me a whole different outlook from many different angles. All I can say is that we all have tasks to complete and we all will make mistakes. Engineers are asked to consider many, many specifications from many points of view. We can't please everyone all the time.

I think the opening subject line is unfair. At the same time, in defense of the subject, some engineers place themselves on a pedestal too high for their own good. They seem to think that a piece of paper makes them somehow special. Truth is, it just means they invested more in training to do a particular something. They need to remember to ask the opinions of those that must work with their designs once in a while. When we start to believe we have all the answers, we are setting ourselves up for a fall.

With regard to the comment that suggests the marketers are to blame. This is also an unfair statement. The marketing group does not decide what we will like. We, the consumer, set the rules by our demand. We demand lower cost, higher quality, better performance, less maintenance, more efficiency, etc. We set the standard by what we buy. We like something, we buy it. The marketers are just doing what they are trained to do, satisfy our desire as inexpensively as possible so that we will buy it.

Bob

 

[physis]

Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Have any of you engineers ever encountered this:

MILTFD41