Do Engineers Have A Clue?

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Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I think Iwire nailed it at the beginning of his post. If you don't know or aren't 100% with what is required then ask. Do so in professional manner regardless of what the "title" of the other person. I have cursed at other engineers and been called things even I would be embarrassed to repeat by electricians. In those cases the person that suffered was the customer and all we did was display ignorance of our respective trade. Put the pride aside and ask. That is how I have learned most of what I think I know about what I'm doing today.

Tony
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Originally posted by physis: Have any of you engineers ever encountered this:
MILT (inappropriate letter deleted) D41
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It?s new to me, but let me guess: ?Make it like the drawing, for once.? ;)
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Charlie, your deductive reasoning again is impecable.

Lady, I understand this is used mostly out of frustration. I don't know weather or not it helps.

[ December 20, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I used to get offended if the shop guys wanted to build it different than I designed it. Over time, I began to realize while what I designed is usually "better" in some way (at least IMO), if they spend all day grousing about it instead of working, the company loses out. Far better to let them make a few changes here and there just to keep them happy.
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

As an engineer, I appreciate all the kind words about everyone making mistakes and we all need to get along. However, if the drawing shows a 125A panel with 2 225A subfeed breakers, they are incorrect. Last time I checked, the size of the largest subfeed can not exceed the panel rating. If my prints had this, I would be the first to admit my error. We can thank the legal profession for everyone's reluctance to admit mistakes.

Now if the drawings call for the 125A panel and the future provisional breakers are mentioned in the specs, You are probably just dealing with a boiler plate spec that did not get edited. Sloppy but not the end of the world.
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I pose this as a serious question, not a complaint against electrical engineers.

I have seen engineers make mistakes that engineers on this forum would not make. Such as overfilling a conduit without derating or failing to spec an increase in equip. ground size when increasing conductor size for voltage drop or not spec'ing a full size equip. ground with parallel conductors.

In other areas of the country things may be different, but here in CA this is what I have seen.

All of the engineers I have dealt with strive to produce a good product, some just have a lack of knowledge.

So my question is how much emphasis is put on the NEC in your study in school and is it on your license exam?
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

So my question is how much emphasis is put on the NEC in your study in school and is it on your license exam?
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I Don't know about the educational system in CA but In SC the NEC was not taught in college. I went to 4 yr fully acredited university and then on to Grad School. However, the NEC is included in the PE liscence exam designed by NCEES that almost every state uses. However it is only a small part.

The issue is that the field of electrical engineering is so huge that requirements for a vast knowledge of the NEC would be a waste of time for many EE's. If your designing computer chips, turbines, software, working in most industries (with PE exemption rule), or working for most utilities, the NEC is just not a big part of your job. It is only the guy designing the electrical systems in structures that need to know it. Perhaps that is why they don't teach it in college. Also, the professors I had didn't know it and couldn't teach it if they had to. Much too interested in researching high temp super conductors and the like. Perhaps this is why to get your PE you are supposed to work under a liscensed PE for 4 years.

I would love to see the PE Liscensing exam changed to have candidates submit plans for a project to be evaluated by a panel of senior electrical engineers. An essay portion if you wish. As it stands now, you can get your PE and know next to nothing about the proper way to design a commercial / residential electrical system.
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I can appreciate how big of a task it would be to get engineers up to snuff on the NEC--how different is an apartment complex from a newspaper printing operation? A PE would be qualified to design both, but they are radically different. We do this full time and can still debate whether it's "legal" to install a 15 between two 20's in a Dining Room! :)
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I just graduated from Purdue a couple years ago with BSEE. The NEC was never taught, for many of the reasons "sceepe" mentioned. I would have liked it if there was an elective class of some sort on the NEC. The professors all stressed to all students to take the EIT though, which would only benefit those who were wanting to get their PE. The first time I even got a look at the NEC was a little over a year ago. I wish I had gotten more familiar with it earlier. :(

Edit: A lot of the mistakes I see on drawings are from "cut and paste" errors in CADD software.

[ December 21, 2004, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: wirenut1980 ]
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Originally posted by sandsnow:
So my question is how much emphasis is put on the NEC in your study in school and is it on your license exam?
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Several of us discussed this in this thread. The NEC itself is not a subject generally taught in academic colleges. It is definitely not an accreditation issue for any major electrical engineering curriculum. Most of us learn it "on the job." When I took it, my PE exam had a single NEC related question. (Which I skipped at the time ;) )
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Is it possible that the reason engineering schools don't teach the NEC is because the NEC is about code and engineering is about theory and accepted laws of science?

Bob
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Originally posted by sandsnow:

So my question is how much emphasis is put on the NEC in your study in school and is it on your license exam?
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Yes, and Yes, and Yes!! I had to learn the NEC from cover to cover. That's why I went for Architectural Engineering opposed to electrical engineering. This program, well at least at Penn State, covers building systems design. The electrical engineering at my school covers DC circuitry and circuit boards.

I'm so glad I did, because I learned lighting design, and how to wire a building with the NEC 1996. The best education you can get for this field. Plus, to top is off...I learned fire alarms and lightning protection. I was trained well at PSU. I'm very grateful.

Love this field...love it! :)
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

AHHH so thats what Architectural Engineers Learn. I have always wondered. I kinda though it was a Oxymoron. Kinda like matter + antimatter. You know combining the "I want it to look like this" person with the "you can't do it that way" person. Do you find yourself torn by these competing forces?????
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Love this field...love it! :D
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Lady, It sounds like you got a really good tool set to start out with. I'll bet that makes a big difference in how much you appreciate what you do. :cool:
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Originally posted by wirenut1980:
Edit: A lot of the mistakes I see on drawings are from "cut and paste" errors in CADD software.
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Actually the mistake is that often times people do not bother to go back and correct the errors on drawings. This makes me nuts that there are known errors on drawings and no one bothers to correct them at the end of a job, so someone else comes along and copies the mistake into another project. Soon it is standard practice. :)

Place I used to work had a 20+ year old drawing of a piece of automated equipment that had an automatic valve missing. Drawing had been that way as long as anyone could remember. The shop knew that piece of equipment needed that valve, and it was on the BOM so it got ordered. They just built it right regardless of the drawing. I wonder how many times that thing was copied over the years with the valve missing. Had to have been hundreds of times.

I just happenned to notice it once just by chance cause I was looking at a mechanical drawing of the piece of equipment trying to figure out where to put a junction box and realized the perfect spot I had found ought to have had something there already. It only took a drafter about 10 minutes to fix the drawing.
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

I had a short stint working as a design engineer at a manufacturing facility. I was once told (and to quote Dave Barry, ?I swear that I am not making this up?) that my drawing was wrong. I asked what was wrong with the drawing, and was told, ?we didn?t build it that way.? ;)
 
Re: Do Engineers Have A Clue?

Originally posted by sceepe:
Do you find yourself torn by these competing forces?????
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Some people try to group me in with "them" but I'm still on the other side of the fence. I'm an engineer 100%, well at least technically an EIT who will be a PE in April (provided I pass that exam).

That's funny...I don't have an eye for architecture, but I took 7 architecture classes. We are not architects in the least, but we understand construction and architectural plans much better. It's such a benefit, and of all the EEs who worked at my job, I was the only one who knew was a feeder was from day one and could design a building right off the bat.

It's was great!! :)
 
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