Does dishonesty pay? I hope not.

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Sierrasparky said:
Not actually correct. Take a look at the newer CSLB laws. In providing repair work in Calif you may not provide or charge more than what is reasonably necessary to correct the problem that resulted in the repair call ( residential)
So if this happened in Calif. and there was nothing wrong with the wiring and nothing wrong with the panel. The EC could be in big trouble if he did the additional work..
Do this to a Elder and you are in really big trouble, as that is criminal.
I am sure that many other states have such consumer protection laws.

Fraud is Fraud.
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I was told that if they quote a price and you are willing to pay it, then it's not fraud, as long as they do the work. Now of course if they quote it and then just pass a magic wand over the panel, that's another story.
 
cowboyjwc said:
I was told that if they quote a price and you are willing to pay it, then it's not fraud, as long as they do the work. Now of course if they quote it and then just pass a magic wand over the panel, that's another story.
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The issue is not that the work was done , the problem is when the work was not required. That is fraud in the CSLB eyes. Do it to a elder and if they complain you be in big trouble man...


7159.10.(a) (1)(C) and 7159.14. (a)


The contractor does not sell the buyer goods or services beyond those reasonably necessary to take care of the particular problem that caused the buyer to contact the contractor.

(b) A violation of paragraph (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), or (8) of subdivision (a) by a licensee or a person subject to be licensed under this chapter, or by his or her agent or salesperson, is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
 
Sierrasparky said:
The issue is not that the work was done , the problem is when the work was not required. That is fraud in the CSLB eyes. Do it to a elder and if they complain you be in big trouble man...


7159.10.(a) (1)(C) and 7159.14. (a)


The contractor does not sell the buyer goods or services beyond those reasonably necessary to take care of the particular problem that caused the buyer to contact the contractor.

(b) A violation of paragraph (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (6), or (8) of subdivision (a) by a licensee or a person subject to be licensed under this chapter, or by his or her agent or salesperson, is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
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It looks like CA is basically saying since the electrician is the expert when it comes to the work and the customer is unlikely to have enough knowledge to protect his/her interest when making the contract, the electrician must assume the role of a fiduciary and not take advantage of the inequality.
 
gadfly56 said:
It looks like CA is basically saying since the electrician is the expert when it comes to the work and the customer is unlikely to have enough knowledge to protect his/her interest when making the contract, the electrician must assume the role of a fiduciary and not take advantage of the inequality.
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that covers it very well.

if you rip out something that doesn't need to be ripped apart,
to replace it for your own benefit or profit, while preying upon
uninformed, frightened people to manipulate them, then it's
considered a crime here.

that isn't true in all locations. district of columbia comes to mind.
 
Coppersmith said:
Homeowner called me. She wanted a second opinion. First guy (tech from licensed EC) told her she needed to replace the panel because it was one of those dangerous ones that bursts into flames. She also needed to rewire the entire condo (2 bedroom, 2 bath) because the wire was dangerous. She had originally called him to quote putting up 3 can lights, 8 light fixtures and 2 fans. She just bought the condo. He would do then entire thing for $6000. She asked if they would just do the lights and fans. They said no, if she wasn't going to change the panel, they weren't interested in doing any other work there.

It sounded like a very reasonable price to me but I went over to take a look anyway. The panel was a Challenger in good shape. No danger, no panel change needed. Went into the attic to inspect the wire. All modern NM, no dangerous wire found. This guy was straight out lying to her. She almost bought it. They say dishonesty doesn't pay, but I read these guys just opened a second office in my county. Perhaps it was just the tech trying to make additional commission and not the EC's business plan. Sad either way.

P.S. I got the job to do the lights and fans.
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Good for you for being honest and thorough with your assessment. Good for her for getting a second opinion. I went on a service call once for a lady who had some dead circuits. Our shop had sent a guy who couldn't figure it out. He told her that she needed a new panel because she had cartridge type fuses and they were unreliable. When I got there she was nervous about a fire starting somewhere. This guy had poured it on. I checked out the panel and it was a nice panel. The buses were nice and shiny and all the fuses were properly sized for the conductors. I assured her that this panel was in fine shape and that fuses are very reliable. The only problem being that you need extras on hand for a fault. I got to the issue at hand and it turned out that exactly half of the fuses were without supply power. One phase was dead. I called the power company and they repaired a crimp that had gone bad. Problem solved. I had a talk with the coworker about troubleshooting and damage control. We retained the customer, but it is embarrassing to have to cover for a moron.
 
Danelectron said:
Good for you for being honest and thorough with your assessment. Good for her for getting a second opinion. I went on a service call once for a lady who had some dead circuits. Our shop had sent a guy who couldn't figure it out. He told her that she needed a new panel because she had cartridge type fuses and they were unreliable. When I got there she was nervous about a fire starting somewhere. This guy had poured it on. I checked out the panel and it was a nice panel. The buses were nice and shiny and all the fuses were properly sized for the conductors. I assured her that this panel was in fine shape and that fuses are very reliable. The only problem being that you need extras on hand for a fault. I got to the issue at hand and it turned out that exactly half of the fuses were without supply power. One phase was dead. I called the power company and they repaired a crimp that had gone bad. Problem solved. I had a talk with the coworker about troubleshooting and damage control. We retained the customer, but it is embarrassing to have to cover for a moron.
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you can't fix stupid.

an auto repair shop came highly recommended.
took wife's honda there for troubleshooting of AC.
he came up with the diagnosis that the ECU needed
replacement, and he couldn't do it, as he couldn't
flash the replacement.

off to honda with his diagnosis. they replaced the ECU
for $1,100.

that didn't fix the problem. it turned out to be a relay.
the dealership felt bad, but they just followed the diagnosis
i was given, that i gave them.

all they could do to make it right was to put in the relay.
there was no charge for it. the service manager felt pretty
bad.

so did i. it was a self inflicted wound. i could have tested.
i know how. i was busy and didn't want to take the time.

what did the repair shop who diagnosed it say? uhhh, duh.
i've not been back since then.
 
Fulthrotl said:
you can't fix stupid.

an auto repair shop came highly recommended.
took wife's honda there for troubleshooting of AC.
he came up with the diagnosis that the ECU needed
replacement, and he couldn't do it, as he couldn't
flash the replacement.

off to honda with his diagnosis. they replaced the ECU
for $1,100.

that didn't fix the problem. it turned out to be a relay.
the dealership felt bad, but they just followed the diagnosis
i was given, that i gave them.

all they could do to make it right was to put in the relay.
there was no charge for it. the service manager felt pretty
bad.

so did i. it was a self inflicted wound. i could have tested.
i know how. i was busy and didn't want to take the time.

what did the repair shop who diagnosed it say? uhhh, duh.
i've not been back since then.
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And you've probably mentioned them by name in any conversation this topic came up in. Which means another 2 or 3 people not going there.

People may or may not mention you in casual conversation if you did a good job, but if they feel ripped off they will mention you 100% of the time. Word-of-mouth can be a two-edged sword.
 
gadfly56 said:
And you've probably mentioned them by name in any conversation this topic came up in. Which means another 2 or 3 people not going there.

People may or may not mention you in casual conversation if you did a good job, but if they feel ripped off they will mention you 100% of the time. Word-of-mouth can be a two-edged sword.
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That is very true and the smaller the town the worse it can be.
 
Fulthrotl said:
that covers it very well.

if you rip out something that doesn't need to be ripped apart,
to replace it for your own benefit or profit, while preying upon
uninformed, frightened people to manipulate them, then it's
considered a crime here.

that isn't true in all locations. district of columbia comes to mind.
Click to expand...
But auto dealers and furniture or appliance stores can sell you accessories you don't need, extended warranties, etc. A lot of money made from those kind of things and some are good at convincing people they need something they really could get by without. Not saying there aren't contractors out there that take advantage of people, but it happens in all types of businesses.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Not actually correct. Take a look at the newer CSLB laws. In providing repair work in Calif you may not provide or charge more than what is reasonably necessary to correct the problem that resulted in the repair call ( residential)
So if this happened in Calif. and there was nothing wrong with the wiring and nothing wrong with the panel. The EC could be in big trouble if he did the additional work..
Do this to a Elder and you are in really big trouble, as that is criminal.
I am sure that many other states have such consumer protection laws.

Fraud is Fraud.
Click to expand...
Yes, and I too think that was fraud. Fraud is in fact illegal if it can be proven.

I don't do my own work on my house any more, I don't have the time (or patience with the sloppy work ethic I show to myself...). So I called a local EC to put in some overhead lights, he tried to up-sell me on replacing my panel too, just because it had a mixture of CB brands in it (Sears panel, which was Bryant, has Bryant, Siemens, and Murray breakers in it, totally legit at the time it was installed in the 70s). He told me it was unsafe and about to catch on fire, then I let him go on to see how far he would go with it. He started trying to tell me that the old 70s vintage cloth wrapped SE cable was "knob and tube" wiring and illegal, so I would need a whole new service run from the meter (it's about 30' away). $3900, not including the 3 overhead lights I wanted in the first place! I don't generally tell electricians I hire that I'm an EE or that I used to be an EC, they might think I'm going to interfere and really, I'm not interested. I am hiring them because I DON'T want to do it any more, and I can afford to "pay the man". But this guy was a blatant rip off artist so I got his written estimate, called the CSLB on him and gave them the details. Don't know the outcome though.
 
Sure seems to me like anyone that calls to have a couple lights installed and then gets told they need thousands of dollars of other things done, the first thing any reasonable person would do is get another opinion or two.
 
kwired said:
Sure seems to me like anyone that calls to have a couple lights installed and then gets told they need thousands of dollars of other things done, the first thing any reasonable person would do is get another opinion or two.
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Yes, but if I had to guess I would suppose that the guy made it sound like the panel was going to catch on fire THAT NIGHT! and she'd better get it done RIGHT NOW! or she MIGHT DIE! People tend not to think straight when they are panicking.
 
gadfly56 said:
Yes, but if I had to guess I would suppose that the guy made it sound like the panel was going to catch on fire THAT NIGHT! and she'd better get it done RIGHT NOW! or she MIGHT DIE! People tend not to think straight when they are panicking.
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I guess if I am selling a panel upgrade in such a situation I am not going to install it before tonight. Even if I show up and there is a glowing connection on the main lugs, something temporary is likely to be done to remedy that immediate problem but the panel change out could be several days later.
 
Jraef said:
Yes, and I too think that was fraud. Fraud is in fact illegal if it can be proven.

I don't do my own work on my house any more, I don't have the time (or patience with the sloppy work ethic I show to myself...). So I called a local EC to put in some overhead lights, he tried to up-sell me on replacing my panel too, just because it had a mixture of CB brands in it (Sears panel, which was Bryant, has Bryant, Siemens, and Murray breakers in it, totally legit at the time it was installed in the 70s). He told me it was unsafe and about to catch on fire, then I let him go on to see how far he would go with it. He started trying to tell me that the old 70s vintage cloth wrapped SE cable was "knob and tube" wiring and illegal, so I would need a whole new service run from the meter (it's about 30' away). $3900, not including the 3 overhead lights I wanted in the first place! I don't generally tell electricians I hire that I'm an EE or that I used to be an EC, they might think I'm going to interfere and really, I'm not interested. I am hiring them because I DON'T want to do it any more, and I can afford to "pay the man". But this guy was a blatant rip off artist so I got his written estimate, called the CSLB on him and gave them the details. Don't know the outcome though.
Click to expand...
Called a local plumber to snake out a drain behind my washing machine, one of those places with a set price. I told him that it was there in the garage and I had moved everything and we were ready to go. "Oh if we have to go in the house it's extra" "You're not going in the house, you're going in the garage" "Either way, why don't you just extend the clean out and put it through the wall into the back yard?" "that wouldn't really work as my dog wouldn't let you in the back yard and there's a perfectly good cleanout behind the washing machine." "Can't do it" "No problem, if you brought a ladder with you, you can climb up onto the second story roof and go down through the vent pipe and clean it from there and then you won't have to come into the house." "Are you kidding" Hand him my business card "Does it seem like I'm kidding?" "Well I'll do it this time, but next time....." "There won't be a next time."

If you're going to try and cheat someone, you should know who all the players are.
 
Jraef said:
Yes, and I too think that was fraud. Fraud is in fact illegal if it can be proven.

I don't do my own work on my house any more, I don't have the time (or patience with the sloppy work ethic I show to myself...). So I called a local EC to put in some overhead lights, he tried to up-sell me on replacing my panel too, just because it had a mixture of CB brands in it (Sears panel, which was Bryant, has Bryant, Siemens, and Murray breakers in it, totally legit at the time it was installed in the 70s). He told me it was unsafe and about to catch on fire, then I let him go on to see how far he would go with it. He started trying to tell me that the old 70s vintage cloth wrapped SE cable was "knob and tube" wiring and illegal, so I would need a whole new service run from the meter (it's about 30' away). $3900, not including the 3 overhead lights I wanted in the first place! I don't generally tell electricians I hire that I'm an EE or that I used to be an EC, they might think I'm going to interfere and really, I'm not interested. I am hiring them because I DON'T want to do it any more, and I can afford to "pay the man". But this guy was a blatant rip off artist so I got his written estimate, called the CSLB on him and gave them the details. Don't know the outcome though.
Click to expand...

The flip side of that is those who 'fly by night' and will put in a new panel for $600. I had someone contact me with that exact price last year. When I inquired if the grounding would be brought up to code, if any GFCI or AFCI breakers were included, or if that included permit cost, I never heard back from him. I got the feeling he was working under a licensed EC moonlighting some extra work.
 
gadfly56 said:
Yes, but if I had to guess I would suppose that the guy made it sound like the panel was going to catch on fire THAT NIGHT! and she'd better get it done RIGHT NOW! or she MIGHT DIE! People tend not to think straight when they are panicking.
Click to expand...

kwired said:
I guess if I am selling a panel upgrade in such a situation I am not going to install it before tonight. Even if I show up and there is a glowing connection on the main lugs, something temporary is likely to be done to remedy that immediate problem but the panel change out could be several days later.
Click to expand...

Oh in that case you have to say "I see you have three more days before your panel erupts into a fireball and your entire family is burnt to a crisp. But don't worry, I can change it in two days."
 
I've heard stories of certain franchisee's bragging about how successful they are at upselling work that isn't necessary. It happens. Probably a lot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
gadfly56 said:
Yes, but if I had to guess I would suppose that the guy made it sound like the panel was going to catch on fire THAT NIGHT! and she'd better get it done RIGHT NOW! or she MIGHT DIE! People tend not to think straight when they are panicking.
Click to expand...


In sales that's what's know as createing "a sense of urgency". I'm not even kidding, this is a sales tatic that is taught to make a sale.
 
growler said:
In sales that's what's know as createing "a sense of urgency". I'm not even kidding, this is a sales tatic that is taught to make a sale.
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Repair shop (I use that term loosely) tried that on my son. Had him thinking he shouldn't even pull the truck out of their lot the brakes were so worn out. I told him you drove it in there you can drive it out and take it to Mitchell's and let them check it over. Yeah, it needed brakes but they also said he probably could have went another 3,000 miles before they went metal to metal.
That's what they do.
 
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