Does my main service panel need grounded?

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cowboyjwc said:
Here the utility will not allow you to install anything, you are responsible for, in their equipment, since you are not supposed to have access to that equipment.

But, we also use mostly all-in-one panels here so we don't have the same kinds of issues.
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So, does the POCO make up the line and load Service Entrance Conductors in the Meter Enclosures?

Roger
 
ptonsparky said:
Key word being "or".
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The picture you show has the GEC connected to the meter can neutral bus as an option...we (POCO) would not allow that, since we consider it a customer connection, and those are not allowed behind a sealable cover. We probably wouldn't like the GEC connected to the service drop neutral, either.
 
meternerd said:
The picture you show has the GEC connected to the meter can neutral bus as an option...we would not allow that, since we consider it a customer connection, and those are not allowed behind a sealable cover. Not to mention the inside disconnect, which I already talked about. I know....picky picky picky!
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So who makes the other terminations and why are they considered accessible?

Roger
 
roger said:
So who makes the other terminations and why are they considered accessible?

Roger
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Here, the customer would install the meter can and associated conduit, load side conductors, etc. We would connect the service drop conductors to the line side of the meter socket and and neutral bus, then seal the enclosure. Our jurisdiction would stop at the meter. Our concern is that all of the load is metered and the meter wiring is secure....beyond that it's Code stuff, which would be the town building department.
 
meternerd said:
Here, the utility would have the customer install the meter can and associated conduit, load side conductors, etc. We would connect the service drop conductors to the line side of the meter socket and and neutral bus, then seal the enclosure. Our jurisdiction would stop at the meter.
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Uh uh, the electrician installs the can, raceway, and load side conductors but these load side conductors will never be a problem and do not need to be accessible, yet a lowly GEC connection needs continuous servicing and can not be in the meter can, seems like someone needs to stand back and look at things again.

Well, I admit it is always a problem when we get called out in the middle of the night during a natural disaster to fix a GEC connection, oh wait, in over 40 years I have never been called to fix a loose GEC connection. ;)


Roger
 
iwire said:
You will have to change that to Most utilities (in my area) require an outside service disconnect.

Here in New England none that I know of require that and from the forums I have learned that is fairly common.
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You can add Florida to the quote. Meter only on the outside of the home is the norm here. Grounding at the meter OR the panel is the norm here.

The wires are missing in the OP picture because he is not done with the job. No you do not run the GEC with the service wires per the NEC. You could run the GEC to the panel separately but why go Thur the trouble or expense. #6 stranded or solid (stranded is cheaper and easier to work with) is all that is required to the ground rods. #4 is required for water ground for 200 amp service.










g
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meternerd said:
Interesting....If you don't require an outside disconnect, do you pull meters under load, wait for the customer to "maybe be home" or just move on to another job? We did a change-out of all electromechanical meters to electronic, and many times customers were not home (lots of second homeowners here by Tahoe). We do not allow our meter readers to pull meters under load, so that would have created a BIG headache for us. Older services w/o the outside disconnect were done by a meter tech or were temporarily disconnected at the pole/transformer by a line crew....slow and expensive. We have decided pulling meters under load is not worth the risk, so we stopped doing it. The biggest issue was with plugging in the new meter. Trying to line up the stabs without arcing was a problem on many meters because of obstructions to visibility. Usually due to decorative enclosures. Any arcing causes voltage problems for loads, so some customer claims about damage were made. Not worth arguing, so we usually just paid the claim.
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I don't really see the point of a meter man accessible disconnect. I don't imagine they would just kill power to a place without getting authorization first and if the HO is there then who needs the outside disconnect? ? I think a meter with bypass is the most sensible thing for a utility to require if they have concerns about the issues you brought up. Also I have pulled and inserted hundreds of meters under load and never had a problem.
 
Florida Power and Light replaced most of their meters with new smart meters. They hired sub contractors (not power company people to do it. they train Joe blow off the street to do it. Pay them piece work ) These are ring less since the 70's. I have not heard of any issues. They just come when they want and change it. I don't know when they changed mine. Just saw it was different one day. Pulling res meters under load is not an issue. FPL will not let the electrician do it but on a service change the guys will leave a seal and tell you to install it after the inspector leaves. They don't want to come back. If you get friendly with them they will give you a few for emergency's. These guys are different. They are a POCO sub contractors. Real guys.
 
roger said:
So, does the POCO make up the line and load Service Entrance Conductors in the Meter Enclosures?

Roger
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Well pretty much what meternerd said. With an all-in-one there is no load side connection. The EC would install the conduit and the conductors to the meter for an over head, but for underground it is supplied from the pull box to the meter socket, by the utility. Then the meter side and pull section side are sealed and the meter is locked by the POCO.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Well pretty much what meternerd said. With an all-in-one there is no load side connection.
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So for this conversation let's just stay with a conventional meter can. Why are the ungrounded and grounded conductors not a concern but the GEC connection is?

Roger
 
ptonsparky said:
I'll hazard a guess. Because you will never know when the GEC connection is bad wheras the others will become apparent eventially.
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And if it's in a disconnect or load center how would you know and why would it matter if you did or didn't? How often do you check your own or customers GEC connections?

Roger
 
ptonsparky said:
The logic is flawed. I agree with you, but that was the only thing I could think of.
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I just don't get it when a POCO uses the "it's not accessible" in the meter can reasoning, it shows me how clueless some of their engineers or rule makers are. JMO :D

Roger
 
Well....quite a conversation. Here's why we do what we do here. We are members of EUSERC (Electric Utility Service Equipment Requirements Committee), which is a western US organization that sets requirements for manufacturers regarding service equipment. EUSERC states that "no customer wiring shall terminate in or pass through a sealable compartment". Not all utilities use EUSERC as a construction standard, but we do. GEC is considered customer wiring. Ringless sockets are an issue because of what I said....meter readers are allowed to pull and install meters so removing covers from ringless sockets was considered beyond their "comfort level". We also have decided that pulling and reinstalling under load is a safety issue for them, so an outside breaker solves the problem. We are a small utility and only have two electricians that work both electric supply and drinking water supply. Not enough time for meter changeouts unless there is a problem. And yes, we pull meters without notifying the customer, because a lot of the homes here are second homes and the owners are nearly impossible to contact. Regarding GEC access, there are times when the customer may want to remove the grounds from a neutral for testing (usually due to "noise" from bonded neutrals in sub-panels or multiple grounds). That's why commercial panels have neutral disconnect links. The neutral can be disconnected from the utility ground so that when the customer bonding is removed, the neutral should read ungrounded. The neutral is only grounded by the utility at the transformer. If the GEC, which is an additional ground, is behind a sealed cover, it cannot be removed without cutting the seal. That's a no-no here. A meter tech (electrician) is sent out each time a cut seal is found to inspect for tampering. Yes, I have found a LOT. May sound like paranoia, but it works for us. And again, yes, I have found many services where the GEC or MBJ is not installed or is terminated incorrectly. Our town inspectors are building inspectors, but are not really electrical inspectors, so we help them out when we find a problem. There have been fatalities here due to bonding problems, so it's a pretty big deal.
 
meternerd said:
There have been fatalities here due to bonding problems, so it's a pretty big deal.
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Bonding is not grounding, that may be part of the confusion with POCO's reasoning's. The GEC connection would not be the problem whether it's made in the Meter Can, the Weather Head, or the Main and at our voltage levels a loose or lost GEC connection wouldn't cause much of a problem.

Roger
 
roger said:
I just don't get it when a POCO uses the "it's not accessible" in the meter can reasoning, it shows me how clueless some of their engineers or rule makers are. JMO :D

Roger
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Well I was going to say I don't know you would have to ask the POCO, but your answer could be just as good.
 
roger said:
Bonding is not grounding, that may be part of the confusion with POCO's reasoning's. The GEC connection would not be the problem whether it's made in the Meter Can, the Weather Head, or the Main and at our voltage levels a loose or lost GEC connection wouldn't cause much of a problem.

Roger
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True...kind of (250.24.D lumps them all together) but as I said, it's still a separate ground connected to the neutral, even though it may be higher impedance due to earth resistance. To us, that makes it a customer connection. I can't see any real reason to connect the GEC to the neutral bus in the sealed section anyway. Here, the POCO connects power based on a "Temporary Power" tag from the building department. That does not guarantee that all of the electrical is finished. Once we seal the enclosure, we're done. Any final inspections of the grounding and bonding by the town includes the GEC connection. We don't want the seals cut to inspect. We have given several training classes for their inspectors on problems with GEC's connected to the can but not jumpered to the neutral bus, as required in 250.24.A.4, and have asked them during the final to make sure it's properly connected. We found MANY that were not. We, as a POCO, are not Code enforcers. Our linemen are not well versed in grounding and bonding, and they do the new service connections, install the meter and seal the panels. Not sure I understand all of the negative comments. Regarding the fatalities, we had a contract plumber get in series with the metal water pipe at a residence while installing a water meter. He was killed when he got across the open junction (voltage was measured at 120V). Investigation showed no MBJ connection, a loose neutral at the customer side bus and a loose GEC connection which arced when disturbed. It was decided that the neutral current was returning to the transformer neutral via the utility pole ground through the water pipe, not the neutral service conductor. We now require them to jumper across the junction before breaking the piping open. Now we and the town are very careful about proper wiring. Sad story, but not the only one I've been involved in. Guess we choose to err on the side of caution.
 
I thought I knew the answers here, and then read four pages and either missed or never saw what I thought was true, so I will tell what I thought and someone elese can tell me where I am wrong.

2011 NEC 250.24(A)(1) states "The grounding electrode conductor connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral, to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means."

To me, that means that the OP's question regarding the GEC connection was a simple, "It is legal." Those who state that the inspection department in there area doesn't "allow" it are either not operating under the NEC, or there is a State or local ordinance altering this code section. It doesn't state, "unless the AHJ doesn't like it."

However, I do believe a Utility Company can refuse to let the GEC to land in their enclosure, but why does every meter can I have ever seen have a ground lug in it?


Second, and more of an issue for me. I live in Florida, I confirm that there are thousands of homes that have a meter on the outside and a main disconnecting means as the main breaker in a panel somewhere inside the house. I have often wondered if this is something that changed around the 1989's or has just always been what I consider violated.

230.70 (A)(1) ...readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. I can't find it right now, but I know there is a place where the NEC states conductors are considered outside the building when they are under the slab. Someone else please help with the code reference, but by exclusion one could assume that conductors run in a crawl space could be interpreted as inside or outside. None the less conductors in an attic for example, are INSIDE the building.

As such, the Florida installation such as my house, where a meter is on the back wall, and the conductors run 20 feet or more through the attic and down in to the main disconnect panel, (GEC to the meter and 3 conductors from meter to panel BTW) is not per the above code. In Ocala, they have determined that back to back is OK, they will look the other way if it is a couple feet in on a side wall, but put an elbow, LOB or anything else in the run and the disconnecting means must be outside in new installations, or meter/service replacement. In Gainesville, they define "nearest the point of entrance" as less that 10 feet of conduit with no boxes. So, an AHJ can define nearest the point, but they shouldn't be able to decide someone can run service entrance conductors across a building to an interior panel without overcurrent protection.
 
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