Does my main service panel need grounded?

[roger]

First of all, if it seems as though I am directing my comments at you personally I apologize, that is not the case.

True...kind of (250.24.D lumps them all together) but as I said, it's still a separate ground connected to the neutral, even though it may be higher impedance due to earth resistance.

Before you go to 250.24 go back and read 250.4(A)(1)(2) and (3), this will explain what grounding does and what bonding all the components together does.

To us, that makes it a customer connection.

And what do you call the load side Ungrounded and Grounded conductor connections?

I can't see any real reason to connect the GEC to the neutral bus in the sealed section anyway.

The best reason is that for dispersing high voltage surges and lightning strikes (see the aforementioned 250.4(A)(1)) it keeps everything at the first point of connection and outside the structure.

Here, the POCO connects power based on a "Temporary Power" tag from the building department. That does not guarantee that all of the electrical is finished. Once we seal the enclosure, we're done.

And we would be as well.

Any final inspections of the grounding and bonding by the town includes the GEC connection. We don't want the seals cut to inspect.

That's no problem either, this is always part of inspections before the Inspection department releases it to the POCO for energizing.

We have given several training classes for their inspectors on problems with GEC's connected to the can but not jumpered to the neutral bus, as required in 250.24.A.4, and have asked them during the final to make sure it's properly connected. We found MANY that were not.

Who manufactures the meter enclosures are you talking about? All that we use (multiple manufactures) has the neutral bar factory attached to the enclosure with a line/load neutral lug and a lug for the GEC. IOW's it is bonded to the can when it leaves the factory, nothing else needs to be done as far as a MBJ.

We, as a POCO, are not Code enforcers. Our linemen are not well versed in grounding and bonding, and they do the new service connections, install the meter and seal the panels. Not sure I understand all of the negative comments.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, I don't mean to be aiming at you personally but I have yet to see a good argument from any POCO on this issue that makes any sense.

Regarding the fatalities, we had a contract plumber get in series with the metal water pipe at a residence while installing a water meter. He was killed when he got across the open junction (voltage was measured at 120V). Investigation showed no MBJ connection, a loose neutral at the customer side bus and a loose GEC connection which arced when disturbed. It was decided that the neutral current was returning to the transformer neutral via the utility pole ground through the water pipe, not the neutral service conductor.

This is a problem with older neighborhoods that are still served by all metal plumbing and in this case it can actually be better to not have any connection to the GES. With no MBJ the lights and appliances will probably go haywire and give a heads up that there was a problem.

We now require them to jumper across the junction before breaking the piping open.

I understand that this is pretty much SOP everywhere now.

Now we and the town are very careful about proper wiring. Sad story, but not the only one I've been involved in. Guess we choose to err on the side of caution.

And I think that is the way it should be but, the lowly GEC connection being made in a meter enclosure that is manufactured to accommodate it certainly isn't a hazard.

Roger

 

[meternerd]

First of all, if it seems as though I am directing my comments at you personally I apologize, that is not the case.

No offense taken...that's what the forum is for....

Before you go to 250.24 go back and read 250.4(A)(1)(2) and (3), this will explain what grounding does and what bonding all the components together does.

No comment....

And what do you call the load side Ungrounded and Grounded conductor connections?

Since we require the disconnect on the outside, we consider any wiring that is not factory to be customer. Factory installed wires and bussing are considered part of the enclosure. Wiring outside the sealed section is customer. Exception are things such as multi-paks, CT services, etc. Unmetered conductors are under our jurisdiction.

The best reason is that for dispersing high voltage surges and lightning strikes (see the aforementioned 250.4(A)(1)) it keeps everything at the first point of connection and outside the structure.


Another reason to have the service disconnect on the outside.


And we would be as well.


That's no problem either, this is always part of inspections before the Inspection department releases it to the POCO for energizing.


I wish that was the case, but we find services tagged "ready for temporary power" that are definitely not. If I still had access to my work computer, I could show you pics of numerous examples....



Who manufactures the meter enclosures are you talking about? All that we use (multiple manufactures) has the neutral bar factory attached to the enclosure with a line/load neutral lug and a lug for the GEC. IOW's it is bonded to the can when it leaves the factory, nothing else needs to be done as far as a MBJ.

We see many suppliers, and most, but not all have the neutral mounted to the can, but others have an insulated standoff, I assume for uses such as solar where a bonded neutral is not allowed.


As I stated at the beginning of this post, I don't mean to be aiming at you personally but I have yet to see a good argument from any POCO on this issue that makes any sense.

This is a problem with older neighborhoods that are still served by all metal plumbing and in this case it can actually be better to not have any connection to the GES. With no MBJ the lights and appliances will probably go haywire and give a heads up that there was a problem.


You'd be surprised how many older services I found that have no MBJ or it's disconnected. Many have a "swing link" to bond it if it's a service, and not to if it's not a service panel. Again...I'd show pics if I still worked there. I was told by my supervisor not to fix it because it wasn't our problem. I fixed 'em anyway. My bad! Loose neutrals sometimes stay loose until the connection is almost totally melted. Not sure why no complaints.

I understand that this is pretty much SOP everywhere now.

And I think that is the way it should be but, the lowly GEC connection being made in a meter enclosure that is manufactured to accommodate it certainly isn't a hazard.

Nope...not a hazard, just an inconvenience for anyone who needs to acces the connection if it's behind a sealed cover. We threaten to fine folks for cutting the seals, but we really never do.

Roger

Good discussion.....

 

[cowboyjwc]

I thought I knew the answers here, and then read four pages and either missed or never saw what I thought was true, so I will tell what I thought and someone elese can tell me where I am wrong.

2011 NEC 250.24(A)(1) states "The grounding electrode conductor connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral, to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means."

To me, that means that the OP's question regarding the GEC connection was a simple, "It is legal." Those who state that the inspection department in there area doesn't "allow" it are either not operating under the NEC, or there is a State or local ordinance altering this code section. It doesn't state, "unless the AHJ doesn't like it."

However, I do believe a Utility Company can refuse to let the GEC to land in their enclosure, but why does every meter can I have ever seen have a ground lug in it?


Second, and more of an issue for me. I live in Florida, I confirm that there are thousands of homes that have a meter on the outside and a main disconnecting means as the main breaker in a panel somewhere inside the house. I have often wondered if this is something that changed around the 1989's or has just always been what I consider violated.

230.70 (A)(1) ...readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. I can't find it right now, but I know there is a place where the NEC states conductors are considered outside the building when they are under the slab. Someone else please help with the code reference, but by exclusion one could assume that conductors run in a crawl space could be interpreted as inside or outside. None the less conductors in an attic for example, are INSIDE the building.

As such, the Florida installation such as my house, where a meter is on the back wall, and the conductors run 20 feet or more through the attic and down in to the main disconnect panel, (GEC to the meter and 3 conductors from meter to panel BTW) is not per the above code. In Ocala, they have determined that back to back is OK, they will look the other way if it is a couple feet in on a side wall, but put an elbow, LOB or anything else in the run and the disconnecting means must be outside in new installations, or meter/service replacement. In Gainesville, they define "nearest the point of entrance" as less that 10 feet of conduit with no boxes. So, an AHJ can define nearest the point, but they shouldn't be able to decide someone can run service entrance conductors across a building to an interior panel without overcurrent protection.

No one said the building department, that I remember. We said the POCO and the POCO said the POCO.

 

[meternerd]

[However, I do believe a Utility Company can refuse to let the GEC to land in their enclosure, but why does every meter can I have ever seen have a ground lug in it?] QUOTE

They may have one, but if it just a lug connected to the can, that's a bonding connection. Most I've seen are built that way. Can't be used to land the GEC but I see new services wired that way all the time. We don't accept it. You can't use the enclosure as a conductor to get the GEC to the neutral, even if you scrape paint, weld it on, use a threaded hole or whatever. The GEC can only be terminated on the ground bus (or ground lug) if it has a wire or busbar connecting the ground bus to the neutral bus (250.24.A.4) To land the GEC in the meter enclosure we prefer it landed directly on the neutral bus if a connection point is available, but that's a building inspector's call, not the utility. The "not in the sealed section" is not Code, just our particular AHJ rule.

 

[kwired]

Looking at the picture in the OP, I'd say running a grounding electrode conductor to the panel in the photo isn't all that necessary if OP never runs any service conductors to it

Otherwise (sorry if been answered already - did not read all posts very carefully) 250.24(A)(1) says:

The grounding electrode conductor connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the overhead service conductors, service drop, underground service conductors, or service lateral to, including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means.

The system must be grounded, but you have more then one place where you could make the grounding connection, some local rules or utility rules may narrow down where those places may be.

 

[Strathead]

No one said the building department, that I remember. We said the POCO and the POCO said the POCO.

growler in post #7 was the first to say that. Side note though, my understanding is correct in you opinion as an inspector?

 

[cowboyjwc]

As an inspector I don't care where you ground it, but also as an inspector, I have a working relationship with the local POCO and if they have something that they want enforced then we enforce it for them.

 

[kwired]

As an inspector I don't care where you ground it, but also as an inspector, I have a working relationship with the local POCO and if they have something that they want enforced then we enforce it for them.

Do they pay you do do that?

As I see it you may know what they want and out of your own kindness maybe make suggestions to installers that something doesn't meet POCO standards, but ultimately POCO is the one that will refuse to energize if it doesn't meet their standards whether you pass the NEC inspection or not.

Otherwise I just don't see you having any authority in inspecting for POCO unless you have some arrangement with them to do so and certainly hope you don't order corrections be made that are only related to POCO rules if not affiliated with POCO. I can understand needing to inspect changes that were made because POCO made them change something.

 

[Cavie]

Do they pay you do do that?

As I see it you may know what they want and out of your own kindness maybe make suggestions to installers that something doesn't meet POCO standards, but ultimately POCO is the one that will refuse to energize if it doesn't meet their standards whether you pass the NEC inspection or not.

Otherwise I just don't see you having any authority in inspecting for POCO unless you have some arrangement with them to do so and certainly hope you don't order corrections be made that are only related to POCO rules if not affiliated with POCO. I can understand needing to inspect changes that were made because POCO made them change something.

In Florida, the POCO's (Duke Power, FPL and others), do list the equipment they will allow to be installed. Metercans, pedestals, underground sweeps etc. They also have diagrams as to how the are to be installed. FPL does allow grounding in the meter can. I don't know about the others. They distribute and handbook with all the scenarios and instructions. They submit this to the AHJ and it is followed. The POCO's authority after the install stops at the weatherhead connection for overhead and at the metercan for underground. Except you DO NOY PULL A METER!! Big money fines and enforcement by the AHJ.

 

[kwired]

In Florida, the POCO's (Duke Power, FPL and others), do list the equipment they will allow to be installed. Metercans, pedestals, underground sweeps etc. They also have diagrams as to how the are to be installed. FPL does allow grounding in the meter can. I don't know about the others. They distribute and handbook with all the scenarios and instructions. They submit this to the AHJ and it is followed. The POCO's authority after the install stops at the weatherhead connection for overhead and at the metercan for underground. Except you DO NOY PULL A METER!! Big money fines and enforcement by the AHJ.

And does AHJ get paid to inspect for POCO? Otherwise they are providing them a service for free - I guess customer ultimately pays either way but just seems to me that if POCO wants to ensure things are up to their standards why can't their customer service people check this when they come to energize the service - that is how they do it here. Some POCO have more rules then others but ultimately it is their rules and they are the ones that will refuse to connect the service if their rules are not met.

 

[Cavie]

And does AHJ get paid to inspect for POCO? Otherwise they are providing them a service for free - I guess customer ultimately pays either way but just seems to me that if POCO wants to ensure things are up to their standards why can't their customer service people check this when they come to energize the service - that is how they do it here. Some POCO have more rules then others but ultimately it is their rules and they are the ones that will refuse to connect the service if their rules are not met.

All the rules are NEC except what equipment is to be installed and the size of the 90 degree underground riser and the overhead riser. There is a ground lug inside the meter enclosure that they approved so use it! They do not care.

The inspector signs off on the install. HE calls the POCO and then they hook it up. Not until.

 

[kwired]

All the rules are NEC except what equipment is to be installed and the size of the 90 degree underground riser and the overhead riser. There is a ground lug inside the meter enclosure that they approved so use it! They do not care.

The inspector signs off on the install. HE calls the POCO and then they hook it up. Not until.

One other big difference in my location - most services are (or at least can be) energized before inspector even see's them. POCO only needs notification from AHJ that there is a permit and they will energize it - as long as it meets any of their rules, if there is a permit inspector will come along eventually even if nobody contacts him and then can order changes if needed.

 

[cowboyjwc]

One other big difference in my location - most services are (or at least can be) energized before inspector even see's them. POCO only needs notification from AHJ that there is a permit and they will energize it - as long as it meets any of their rules, if there is a permit inspector will come along eventually even if nobody contacts him and then can order changes if needed.

Well see that the difference, I inspect things per the POCO standards and they NEVER energize any new service without a release from me. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Some of us have friends.:happyyes:

 

[Strathead]

Well see that the difference, I inspect things per the POCO standards and they NEVER energize any new service without a release from me. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Some of us have friends.:happyyes:

I have worked in California large area but all PG and E. They had a green tag. When the AHJ approves power be turned on, they put a green tag on the meter. They also called the Power company. The customer who is paying the bill then calls to have the power turned on. Then and only then they do.

I now live in Florida. I have worked FPL. Ocala and Gainesville Utlities and at least three others. All have worked the same. When it is OK to turn on power, the inspector calls the power company and authorizes it and the customer orders it. So basically same as you state in both places. The one who says power can be turned on without inspection stuns me.

 

[ptonsparky]

I have worked in California large area but all PG and E. They had a green tag. When the AHJ approves power be turned on, they put a green tag on the meter. They also called the Power company. The customer who is paying the bill then calls to have the power turned on. Then and only then they do.

I now live in Florida. I have worked FPL. Ocala and Gainesville Utlities and at least three others. All have worked the same. When it is OK to turn on power, the inspector calls the power company and authorizes it and the customer orders it. So basically same as you state in both places. The one who says power can be turned on without inspection stuns me.

Prepare to be stunned again!!

 

[Strathead]

Prepare to be stunned again!!

Stunned on a regular basis, but I would not like to be somewhere where the POCO turned power on because any old electrician said it was OK. Even though I would lvoe to have it turned on when I give my word.

 

[meternerd]

Sounds like most do it the way we do. Same thing in Alaska where I worked. Town building inspector signs off and hangs a "ready for temporary power" tag and calls POCO that it's ready for power. We go and do our inspection and if all is well, they get power. But, as I said, we go beyond just the service drop connections as a courtesy to the building dept. If we find problems, we contact the town and they have the option of meeting us at the site for a "conference". It saves a rehash each time a service is hooked up. We are now pretty much on the same page. Contractors are not real happy when they get tagged by the town and then we (POCO) come along and say it's not right. Better to be friends and not adversaries. Bottom line is to make it safe and compliant. We, as a POCO, strongly suggest that the builder submits drawing listing equipment and a one line of the service hookup. If they do, and we have issues, they can get it right before they install something that's not acceptable. Saves time and money. If they don't, they are still required to make it right, regardless of extra cost or time lost. I've been threatened more than once over this, and I have taken the police with me on occasion. I take threats seriously. Probably not a popular thing to say, but if you don't make the POCO happy, you don't get power. Just the way it is.

 

[ptonsparky]

Kwire and I get our projects Oturned On. Obviously some of you can't be trusted.

 

[kwired]

Well see that the difference, I inspect things per the POCO standards and they NEVER energize any new service without a release from me. I scratch your back, you scratch mine. Some of us have friends.:happyyes:

Kwire and I get our projects Oturned On. Obviously some of you can't be trusted.

I bet none of those CA or FL inspectors ever have to travel 100 miles (or more) to do an inspection in their "regular territory" either.

 

[Cavie]

I bet none of those CA or FL inspectors ever have to travel 100 miles (or more) to do an inspection in their "regular territory" either.

Nope, 30 miles one way will pretty much do it. When I was inspecting we had 12 electric inspectors in Lee County.