Dual energy generation with magnetic seesaw system and gravity

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mgookin

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
vikram_gupta11 said:
this seesaw is not moving in up and down direction but is moving side by side and see the latest picture as you have not understand this concept.
Click to expand...

No it's you who does not understand.

There are people on here who are capable and willing, at no cost to you, to analyze, calculate and explain what the net forces will be, and you have continually failed to produce what was requested of you.

Top, front and side views with arrows indicating motion and forces. Can you do that? If not, find someone who can. You have failed to communicate your concept with sufficient detail for someone qualified to provide an opinion.

You keep saying seesaw but yet you say it does not go up and down. Then it's not a seesaw. Is it a reciprocating turnstile? What is it?

But before you even go through all of that work, do you understand that it takes energy to push a magnet through a coil to produce an electric field? It sounds like you think it's free to push the flashlights back and forth, or up and down, whichever direction you're trying to move these flashlights to produce power.

Another consideration is this is a National Electric Code forum. The primary objective of this forum is wiring buildings and facilities in compliance with the National Electric Code. Your concept is more suitable for PhysicsForums or similar. Have you taken it there? No matter where you take your concept, if you can't explain it, you're wasting everyone's time.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
vikram_gupta11 said:
this seesaw is not moving in up and down direction but is moving side by side and see the latest picture as you have not understand this concept.
Click to expand...
mgookin already hit some of my thoughts on this.

If you are moving it side to side instead of up and down like a "see - saw" you have me even less convinced that it is even going to come close to working, from the perspective of getting at least same energy out as was put in. The up and down I can see you thinking gravity is going to help you but side to side? If it oscillates back and forth, you put energy into it in one direction, what makes it slow down, stop and reverse direction? there has to be some loss or counter force causing this to happen.

Now consider this for vertical or horizontal oscillation motion - when you push the magnet through the coil and power a load with the electric current that is produced, that magnet through the coil is going to have more opposition to movement the more load you try to drive with it - this is all before you even consider friction or other losses you will have. Same thing happens with a rotary generator or alternator, the more load you are trying to power up the more the electromagnetic fields in the generator/alternator push back against whatever prime mover is trying to push them.
 
M

mike_kilroy

Senior Member
Location
United States
ggunn said:
No. An electric motor does just that with electromagnetic poles that switch on and off, but the motor still cannot power itself.
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OK. NO it is.

I have no clue what the electric motor comment has to do with my question, but OK.

If you cannot accept that if a magnet can be used to attract and then turn off to prevent the opposite repulsion, so be it. You will never see the potential of this new field. OK by me. Glad I am providing the electrical control for this new patent and not you. :)
 
G

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
mike_kilroy said:
OK. NO it is.

I have no clue what the electric motor comment has to do with my question, but OK.

If you cannot accept that if a magnet can be used to attract and then turn off to prevent the opposite repulsion, so be it. You will never see the potential of this new field. OK by me. Glad I am providing the electrical control for this new patent and not you. :)
Click to expand...

The only type of magnet that can be easily turned on and off is an electromagnet. In which case you need to account for the energy pumped into the magnetic field and extracted again when it is turned off. The two will not necessarily be equal if magnetic material has moved in the field between the two times.
 
W

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
vikram_gupta11 said:
Dear Sir,
I'm not denying this fact that input should be greater but I want to tell you that only once time input will be sufficient to shake all total 10 no. flashlights.There is no need of 10 time force we can shake alt with only one time input.
That's the magic in this design.
Click to expand...

You can consider the energy required to shake the flashlight to be composed of two parts: that energy required to produce the output assuming perfect conversion, and that energy required to overcome losses.

Your system might reduce the energy required to overcome losses, but the energy required to produce the output will not be reduced.

-Jon
 
V

vikram_gupta11

Member
Location
india
winnie said:
You can consider the energy required to shake the flashlight to be composed of two parts: that energy required to produce the output assuming perfect conversion, and that energy required to overcome losses.

Your system might reduce the energy required to overcome losses, but the energy required to produce the output will not be reduced.

-Jon
Click to expand...

I did some experiment and after that I post this Idea .
I used 6 balls (toy ball which light up due to pressure) and attach these balls with both Arms of seesaw system .when I applied a force on this seesaw then the balls glowed up and So I think that we can use coil+magnet system and it will also work.
I also tested mass issue that so I put 3 kilogram weight on each arm but it didn't effect the whole system and balls again glowed up with same force that I applied before attaching the weight.
Now I want to tell that I used just a very little force only using my finger tips and this system did well what I was expecting.

Now in this design we are shaking 10 no. flashlights with the force of equal to shake a single flashlight(COIL+MAGNET) and these flashlight will work or glow up there is no doubt about it. we can take not only 10 no. flashlight but also 20,30,50 or more because remember the seesaw is in balanced position so again say that there is need of only small amount of energy to move it and also consider that this seesaw is just moving only 2 to 3 centimeter sideways so this is also an advantage .
Friction is very less,applying force is same as we are shaking 10 no. flashlights with the force of shaking a single flashlight.sideways momentum is only 2 to 3 centimeter then why this should not work?

I M NOT DENYING THAT INPUT MUST GREATER AS INPUT IS GREATER BUT ONLY ONE TIME GREATER INPUT IS SUFFICIENT TO SHAKE ALL 10 NO. FLASHLIGHTS.

There may be friction loss but it will be negligible and there will be no effect on the entire system due to this loss.
So my earnest request to all of great folks that reconsider about this design.
 
G

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
mike_kilroy said:
OK.

Did you look at how it is done with rare earth magnets on the link provided?
Click to expand...
The link does not go into sufficient detail for any analysis.
But the common fault in this kind of unreal machine is that the energy used to move the magnets relative to each other is, when properly calculated or measured, large enough to account for any extra output energy.
 
M

mike_kilroy

Senior Member
Location
United States
GoldDigger said:
The link does not go into sufficient detail for any analysis.
But the common fault in this kind of unreal machine is that the energy used to move the magnets relative to each other is, when properly calculated or measured, large enough to account for any extra output energy.
Click to expand...

I apologize; I had thought that link had a comparison chart of attraction force vs slide sideways force... Here is a link to such a chart from one of own forum threads - it is in the solution101 13 aug 13 00:54:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=349966

or the link itself: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=magnetic-forces

So if one uses the force of attraction straight on, then SLIDES the magnets apart, will the net force not be positive?
 
junkhound

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
mike_kilroy said:
if one uses the force of attraction straight on, then SLIDES the magnets apart, will the net force not be positive?
Click to expand...

Flux is defined as a surface integral of B(ds), so net is zero.

When someone finds the free lunch counter, please invite me :ashamed:
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
vikram_gupta11 said:
I did some experiment and after that I post this Idea .
I used 6 balls (toy ball which light up due to pressure) and attach these balls with both Arms of seesaw system .when I applied a force on this seesaw then the balls glowed up and So I think that we can use coil+magnet system and it will also work.
I also tested mass issue that so I put 3 kilogram weight on each arm but it didn't effect the whole system and balls again glowed up with same force that I applied before attaching the weight.
Now I want to tell that I used just a very little force only using my finger tips and this system did well what I was expecting.

Now in this design we are shaking 10 no. flashlights with the force of equal to shake a single flashlight(COIL+MAGNET) and these flashlight will work or glow up there is no doubt about it. we can take not only 10 no. flashlight but also 20,30,50 or more because remember the seesaw is in balanced position so again say that there is need of only small amount of energy to move it and also consider that this seesaw is just moving only 2 to 3 centimeter sideways so this is also an advantage .
Friction is very less,applying force is same as we are shaking 10 no. flashlights with the force of shaking a single flashlight.sideways momentum is only 2 to 3 centimeter then why this should not work?

I M NOT DENYING THAT INPUT MUST GREATER AS INPUT IS GREATER BUT ONLY ONE TIME GREATER INPUT IS SUFFICIENT TO SHAKE ALL 10 NO. FLASHLIGHTS.

There may be friction loss but it will be negligible and there will be no effect on the entire system due to this loss.
So my earnest request to all of great folks that reconsider about this design.
Click to expand...
The toy balls, do they also have a coil and magnet to produce the energy to make them light, or do they already have an internal power source like a battery and all your movement does is make a switch close, possibly only momentarily and any flashing that happens is a programmed function once the start signal has been received?

And your balanced sea-saw, it may only take a limited amount of energy to start it in motion, what happens to that energy when it reaches the end of the one way travel distance? Assume no frictional losses at all in the pivot point - you still crash all the inertia into whatever stops the one way movement and then have to accelerate it in the opposite direction to continue operation. Crashing that inertia into a spring would be of some help, you transfer the energy to the spring and then is transfers it back when pushing the other direction, but you will still have some losses in there, they may be more difficult to measure on this small of a scale but they are there.
 
G

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
mike_kilroy said:
OK. NO it is.

I have no clue what the electric motor comment has to do with my question, but OK.

If you cannot accept that if a magnet can be used to attract and then turn off to prevent the opposite repulsion, so be it. You will never see the potential of this new field. OK by me. Glad I am providing the electrical control for this new patent and not you. :)
Click to expand...

How did you come up with the idea that I didn't accept it? My comment was about electromagnets, which can indeed be turned on and off. Electric motors use this to take advantage of force in one direction and relief in the other. They still require energy from the outside to make them work. If you can figure out a way to modulate the field of a permanent magnet without expending any energy you might have something, but good luck with that.

It reminds me of Steve Martin's routine about how to have a million dollars and not pay taxes. "First, get a million dollars..."
 
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