Dude, where is my service point?

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unsaint34

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"230.30 Insulation. Service lateral conductors shall......"

Why is the article 230 Part III Underground Service Conductors starts with service lateral conductors?

In the article 100, it's clear that service lateral is before a service point, and underground service conductor is after a service point.

Can someone explain this? Does it depend on where the service point is in underground service situation? Where is usually the service point of the underground service? thanks.
 
unsaint34 said:
"230.30 Insulation. Service lateral conductors shall......"

Why is the article 230 Part III Underground Service Conductors starts with service lateral conductors?

In the article 100, it's clear that service lateral is before a service point, and underground service conductor is after a service point.

Can someone explain this? Does it depend on where the service point is in underground service situation? Where is usually the service point of the underground service? thanks.
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The service point is not always at the load end of service laterals. For example, many services with pad-mount POCO transformers have the service point located at the secondary terminals of the transformer. The secondary conductors are laterals. Additionally, the service disconnect may be exterior... so no service entrance conductors.
 
same point....
On a lot of the larger service here, the contractor is responsible for the service lateral to the transformer/service point.
 
Smart $ said:
The service point is not always at the load end of service laterals. For example, many services with pad-mount POCO transformers have the service point located at the secondary terminals of the transformer. The secondary conductors are laterals. Additionally, the service disconnect may be exterior... so no service entrance conductors.
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what justifies the definition of service lateral then?
In the article 100, it's clear that service lateral is before a service point. (between utility electric system and service point)

What is the logic behind calling that lateral instead of an underground service conductor?
 
augie47 said:
same point....
On a lot of the larger service here, the contractor is responsible for the service lateral to the transformer/service point.
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In your quote, is the service lateral connected to the primary or secondary side of the transformer?
 
unsaint34 said:
In your quote, is the service lateral connected to the primary or secondary side of the transformer?
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An NEC service lateral can only be on the primary side if the transformer is customer owned.

When the POCO owns the transformer, they may call the primary conductors service laterals, but those conductors are outside the scope of the NEC.
 
Smart $ said:
An NEC service lateral can only be on the primary side if the transformer is customer owned.

When the POCO owns the transformer, they may call the primary conductors service laterals, but those conductors are outside the scope of the NEC.
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I thought you said the secondary of a POCO transformer is the lateral.

Smart $ said:
For example, many services with pad-mount POCO transformers have the service point located at the secondary terminals of the transformer. The secondary conductors are laterals.
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2011 NEC Art 100 definitions:

Service Lateral. The underground conductors between the utility electric supply system and the service point.

If the underground conductors are customer owned / maintained or otherwise determined to be on customer side of service point then there is no "service lateral" in the installation. Service point can be transformer terminals. You simply have underground service conductors.


This definition did change from 2008, here is what 2008 said:

Service Lateral. The underground service conductors between the street main, including any risers at a pole or other structure or from transformers, and the first point of connection to the service-entrance conductors in a terminal box or meter or other enclosure, inside or outside the building wall. Where there is no terminal box, meter, or other enclosure, the point of connection is considered to be the point of entrance of the service conductors into the building.

I like the 2011 definition better. I think it is very clear what it includes as compared to 2008 definition.

Service drop has had similar changes to its definition.

Service laterals, and service drops are both on supply side of service point in 2011 NEC. This basically means they are utility conductors and are not covered by the NEC.
 
unsaint34 said:
I thought you said the secondary of a POCO transformer is the lateral.
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I did. And my statement didn't change that... I was just saying what the POCO calls a lateral may not be a lateral by NEC definition ...BUT... I have to apologize. I have not revisited this issue under 2011 NEC.

Kwired brings up point in fact that the definition has changed between 2008 and 2011 editions of the NEC. Under 2011 you cannot have a service lateral on the load side of the service point... so no service lateral is under NEC purview. The technical correlating committee must have been sleeping on this one.
 
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Smart $ said:
I did. And my statement didn't change that... I was just saying what the POCO calls a lateral may not be a lateral by NEC definition ...BUT... I have to apologize. I have not revisited this issue under 2011 NEC.

Kwired brings up point in fact that the definition has changed between 2008 and 2011 editions of the NEC. Under 2011 you cannot have a service lateral on the load side of the service point... so no service lateral is under NEC purview. The technical correlating committee must have been sleeping on this one.
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I don't know that anyone dropped the ball on this one. It did not change what we actually do in the field in most instances. Those mentioned changes along with the added informational note after the "service point" definition in art 100 did help clarify what part of an installation is covered by the NEC and what is not.
 
kwired said:
I don't know that anyone dropped the ball on this one. It did not change what we actually do in the field in most instances. Those mentioned changes along with the added informational note after the "service point" definition in art 100 did help clarify what part of an installation is covered by the NEC and what is not.
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The ball got dropped in 230.30 as the OP lead-in notes. It makes a requirement for service-lateral conductor insulation voltage rating. Because of the revised 2011 definitions, there are no service lateral conductors under NEC purview. Should be "underground service conductors".
 
Smart $ said:
The ball got dropped in 230.30 as the OP lead-in notes. It makes a requirement for service-lateral conductor insulation voltage rating. Because of the revised 2011 definitions, there are no service lateral conductors under NEC purview. Should be "underground service conductors".
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Good one, I got caught up in quoting definitions and not really reading what the OP question was, but the topic may have brought light to the fact there were changes for some people.
 
According to MH 2011 update-- and I kinda quote--the service point is where ever the POCO says it is--:?=--my reccomendation would be to contact POCO and find out where they say they stop
 
So, technically speaking ..... NEC's scope does not cover service lateral conductors. Therefore, "230.30 Insulation. Service-lateral conductors shall be insulated ..." is meaningless since a power company has to deal with service lateral conductors.

Additionally, that part should be taken out from under the heading of III. Underground Service Conductors, since the lateral is on the line side of a service point and underground service conductor is on the load side.
 
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Smart $ said:
Additionally, the service disconnect may be exterior... so no service entrance conductors.
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That got me wondering. When the disconnect is on the outside of the building, what is the conductor between the disconnect and the main panel inside the building? It cannot be a feeder. Is it just a service conductor? Can it be service entrance conductor? Thanks.
 
unsaint34 said:
So, technically speaking ..... NEC's scope does not cover service lateral conductors. Therefore, "230.30 Insulation. Service-lateral conductors shall be insulated ..." is meaningless since a power company has to deal with service lateral conductors.

Additionally, that part should be taken out from under the heading of III. Underground Service Conductors, since the lateral is on the line side of a service point and underground service conductor is on the load side.
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I don't see it that way. The NEC does cover a service lateral, if the point of delivery is at the XF. The point of delivery will be the point of jurisdiction between the NESC and the NEC.

The POCO sets the point of delivery. It could be the meterbase, the top of the pole, the padmount, or a vault, and it could be secondary or primary voltages. We have some places where the point of delivery is the top of the pole at the 25 kV cutout.

If the point of delivery is at the XF, and you have to run the conductors to the pole overhead, it is a service drop. If the conductors are underground, it is a service lateral.

If the POCO point of delivery is at the weather head (for overhead), or the meterbase (underground), the NEC isn't involved in the service laterals or drops.
 
unsaint34 said:
That got me wondering. When the disconnect is on the outside of the building, what is the conductor between the disconnect and the main panel inside the building? It cannot be a feeder. Is it just a service conductor? Can it be service entrance conductor? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Once you are on load side of service disconnect, you no longer are talking service equipment, or service conductors. There is no other choice but a feeder or a branch circuit. If it supplies other overcurrent devices it is a feeder, if it supplies a load it is a branch circuit.
 
unsaint34 said:
That got me wondering. When the disconnect is on the outside of the building, what is the conductor between the disconnect and the main panel inside the building? It cannot be a feeder. Is it just a service conductor? Can it be service entrance conductor? Thanks.
Click to expand...
It is a feeder. No, it is not a service entrance conductor.
 
unsaint34 said:
So, technically speaking ..... NEC's scope does not cover service lateral conductors. Therefore, "230.30 Insulation. Service-lateral conductors shall be insulated ..." is meaningless since a power company has to deal with service lateral conductors.

Additionally, that part should be taken out from under the heading of III. Underground Service Conductors, since the lateral is on the line side of a service point and underground service conductor is on the load side.
Click to expand...
IMO, read 230.30 substituting "underground service conductors".
 
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