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Eaton BR and Siemens QP

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Dsg319

Dsg319

Senior Member
Location
West Virginia
Occupation
Wv Master “lectrician”
These two are interchangeable right? Working on a Siemens panel that already has BR and would like to keep it the same.
 
T

Todd0x1

Senior Member
Location
CA
Physically maybe, listing wise probably not. The Eaton CL breakers are listed for Siemens panels, but I think the only thing BR breakers can go in is BR (or it's ancestor's) panels.
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
It's mostly a listing thing as most of the 1" breakers will physically interchange. But I have found that some brands don't fit the bus stabs of other brands as well as what is supposed to be in that panel. Usually it's that the breakers are loose on the stabs which will lead to a high resistance and cause a poor connection. This will eventually burn up the connections on the breaker, the bus stab, or both.
 
J

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I see wrong breakers in panels all the time. (Homeline, too.) It doesn't seem to lead to problems, but in my opinion it's a sing of hack work.

Plug on neutral breakers are not physically interchangeable.
 
Jraef

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
The concept of “interchangeability” ended in I think 1990 or so, due to fires that happened when breakers didn’t seat correctly, and the breaker manufacturers blamed the panel manufacturers and vice versa. So UL changed the listing rules to require that any breaker be TESTED in any panel it was to be mounted it. If you were the manufacturer of both, that was a given, but if you made the panels, why would you test competitive breakers if it? If you were the breaker manufacturer, it meant testing your cheap little breaker in EVERY possible panel, which made it VERY expensive.

Eaton, who at the time had bought Challenger in order to get the old Sylvania interchangeable breaker lines, petitioned UL for a way to list this and they (UL) came up with the “Classified” program in which Eaton could buy competitive panels and test the breakers in them. The limiting issue though is that the Classified breakers must LIST the panel part number series they can be used in as part of the Classified listing. So it is not universal, you must check if your panel number is in the list of acceptable products for your Classified breaker.

Eaton did this with their CL line (the old Challenger/Sylvania breakers) and covered MOST competitors and legacy brands of the old “interchangeable” lines. Siemens ONLY did that with Square D QO panels, Connecticut Electric did it with a few legacy lines, that’s it. Square D NEVER did it, so even though Homeline was meant to be “interchangeable”, it’s a code violation to use them anywhere other than in Homeline panels. Siemens never did it for their QPs, although they were already interchangeable with most Murray panels (not Arrow Hart / Murray or pre Crouse-Hinds / Murray) because when Siemens bought Murray from Crouse-Hinds, they switched to using the QP breakers in Murray panels with just changing the stickers (and UL files). GE has no Classified breakers either.

So “interchangeability” has been effectively dead for decades now, replaced with the “Classified” program which is much more specific and detailed. That has not stopped DIYers and Handymen who don’t care about official listings or permits from still doing it and even websites touting it as OK, but legitimate ECs need to pay heed.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Jraef said:
The concept of “interchangeability” ended in I think 1990 or so, due to fires that happened when breakers didn’t seat correctly, and the breaker manufacturers blamed the panel manufacturers and vice versa. So UL changed the listing rules to require that any breaker be TESTED in any panel it was to be mounted it. If you were the manufacturer of both, that was a given, but if you made the panels, why would you test competitive breakers if it? If you were the breaker manufacturer, it meant testing your cheap little breaker in EVERY possible panel, which made it VERY expensive.

Eaton, who at the time had bought Challenger in order to get the old Sylvania interchangeable breaker lines, petitioned UL for a way to list this and they (UL) came up with the “Classified” program in which Eaton could buy competitive panels and test the breakers in them. The limiting issue though is that the Classified breakers must LIST the panel part number series they can be used in as part of the Classified listing. So it is not universal, you must check if your panel number is in the list of acceptable products for your Classified breaker.

Eaton did this with their CL line (the old Challenger/Sylvania breakers) and covered MOST competitors and legacy brands of the old “interchangeable” lines. Siemens ONLY did that with Square D QO panels, Connecticut Electric did it with a few legacy lines, that’s it. Square D NEVER did it, so even though Homeline was meant to be “interchangeable”, it’s a code violation to use them anywhere other than in Homeline panels. Siemens never did it for their QPs, although they were already interchangeable with most Murray panels (not Arrow Hart / Murray or pre Crouse-Hinds / Murray) because when Siemens bought Murray from Crouse-Hinds, they switched to using the QP breakers in Murray panels with just changing the stickers (and UL files). GE has no Classified breakers either.

So “interchangeability” has been effectively dead for decades now, replaced with the “Classified” program which is much more specific and detailed. That has not stopped DIYers and Handymen who don’t care about official listings or permits from still doing it and even websites touting it as OK, but legitimate ECs need to pay heed.
Click to expand...
I remember some the marketing hype when Homeline first came out was interchangeability. They claimed they would plug into nearly all others with similar design but the others would not plug directly into a Homeline panel.

I've seen more Homelines plugged into other panels than I have seen others plugged into Homeline panels. Not sure if others changed to fit Homeline or if that was just rumor from the start of Homeline existence. I never really tried to plug others into Homeline myself so not really sure.

Maybe that wasn't official hype from Square D but rather from the distributor(s)?

Then there is Milbank, Midwest and a few others with pedestals, meter mains, etc. that list multiple breaker manufacturer lines as acceptable to plug into their equipment.
 
N

norcal

Senior Member
Jraef said:
The concept of “interchangeability” ended in I think 1990 or so, due to fires that happened when breakers didn’t seat correctly, and the breaker manufacturers blamed the panel manufacturers and vice versa. So UL changed the listing rules to require that any breaker be TESTED in any panel it was to be mounted it. If you were the manufacturer of both, that was a given, but if you made the panels, why would you test competitive breakers if it? If you were the breaker manufacturer, it meant testing your cheap little breaker in EVERY possible panel, which made it VERY expensive.

Eaton, who at the time had bought Challenger in order to get the old Sylvania interchangeable breaker lines, petitioned UL for a way to list this and they (UL) came up with the “Classified” program in which Eaton could buy competitive panels and test the breakers in them. The limiting issue though is that the Classified breakers must LIST the panel part number series they can be used in as part of the Classified listing. So it is not universal, you must check if your panel number is in the list of acceptable products for your Classified breaker.

Eaton did this with their CL line (the old Challenger/Sylvania breakers) and covered MOST competitors and legacy brands of the old “interchangeable” lines. Siemens ONLY did that with Square D QO panels, Connecticut Electric did it with a few legacy lines, that’s it. Square D NEVER did it, so even though Homeline was meant to be “interchangeable”, it’s a code violation to use them anywhere other than in Homeline panels. Siemens never did it for their QPs, although they were already interchangeable with most Murray panels (not Arrow Hart / Murray or pre Crouse-Hinds / Murray) because when Siemens bought Murray from Crouse-Hinds, they switched to using the QP breakers in Murray panels with just changing the stickers (and UL files). GE has no Classified breakers either.

So “interchangeability” has been effectively dead for decades now, replaced with the “Classified” program which is much more specific and detailed. That has not stopped DIYers and Handymen who don’t care about official listings or permits from still doing it and even websites touting it as OK, but legitimate ECs need to pay heed.
Click to expand...
Back when Siemens discontinued the Murray MP breakers & had EQ frame breakers listed for Murray the Murray breakers were different in case design, the new Murray MP did not have the bevel on the breaker escutcheon that the Siemens QP did, but because they were somewhat the same would use a Murray in a ITE or Siemens panel, but then decided that was not a good idea & stopped, but on another note, any Crouse-Hinds panel that I saw with a intact label allowed ITE & Bryant breakers in addition to the OEM MP breakers.

While in my opinion it would be foolish to use it to justify using any make of breaker in Siemens panels, they sell panel interiors to OEM builders that are listed for other makes of breakers, but the whole Listed vs Classified is clear as mud, there is no simple way to determine what is OK & what is not, complicated by defunct manufacturers, & changes in brand names. It would be nice for a sticky listing classified breakers & a link to any documentation supporting it.
 
Jraef

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Well, being that it’s mostly just Eaton that makes the Classified breakers, this is what you need.


If the PANEL lists different breakers on the label as acceptable, then it’s acceptable. People like Midwest etc. do that by paying to test the breakers in their panels, since they don’t make breakers. But yes, in some older panels made before the change in the UL listing process, you will still see labels listing competitors as acceptable substitutes. If you come across one of those, it’s completely legit to use what’s listed on the label.

You will NOT however, find Homeline ever listed there, because Homeline came out AFTER the change. Schneider has never officially said or advertised that you can used Homeline breakers anywhere else, and in fact are vehement about not using Classified breakers anywhere (targeted mostly against using them in Schneider panels of course). So anything you saw likely came from Square D distributors eager to finally have something that could be sold to other than Square D panels, even if not entirely legal.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Jraef said:
Well, being that it’s mostly just Eaton that makes the Classified breakers, this is what you need.


If the PANEL lists different breakers on the label as acceptable, then it’s acceptable. People like Midwest etc. do that by paying to test the breakers in their panels, since they don’t make breakers. But yes, in some older panels made before the change in the UL listing process, you will still see labels listing competitors as acceptable substitutes. If you come across one of those, it’s completely legit to use what’s listed on the label.

You will NOT however, find Homeline ever listed there, because Homeline came out AFTER the change. Schneider has never officially said or advertised that you can used Homeline breakers anywhere else, and in fact are vehement about not using Classified breakers anywhere (targeted mostly against using them in Schneider panels of course). So anything you saw likely came from Square D distributors eager to finally have something that could be sold to other than Square D panels, even if not entirely legal.
Click to expand...
Fairly certain Milbank lists Homeline breakers on equipment labels.

Any factory installed breakers in Milbank equipment tends to be Siemens FWIW.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
retirede said:
My Milbank spa panel came with GE.
Click to expand...
Milbank or Midwest? Midwest lists other brands but was owned by GE and usually used GE breakers for any factory installed breakers. AFAIK when ABB acquired GE Industrial Solutions they also got Midwest.
 
R

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
kwired said:
Milbank or Midwest? Midwest lists other brands but was owned by GE and usually used GE breakers for any factory installed breakers. AFAIK when ABB acquired GE Industrial Solutions they also got Midwest.
Click to expand...

I had to go look…..you’re correct, it’s a Midwest.
 
dwils1980

dwils1980

Member
Location
Fort Collins Colorado
Occupation
Master Electrician, Building Inspector
Jraef said:
Well, being that it’s mostly just Eaton that makes the Classified breakers, this is what you need.


If the PANEL lists different breakers on the label as acceptable, then it’s acceptable. People like Midwest etc. do that by paying to test the breakers in their panels, since they don’t make breakers. But yes, in some older panels made before the change in the UL listing process, you will still see labels listing competitors as acceptable substitutes. If you come across one of those, it’s completely legit to use what’s listed on the label.

You will NOT however, find Homeline ever listed there, because Homeline came out AFTER the change. Schneider has never officially said or advertised that you can used Homeline breakers anywhere else, and in fact are vehement about not using Classified breakers anywhere (targeted mostly against using them in Schneider panels of course). So anything you saw likely came from Square D distributors eager to finally have something that could be sold to other than Square D panels, even if not entirely legal.
Click to expand...
Should this be going both ways though? If the panel lists different breakers as acceptable but the different breaker manufacturer either doesn't carry a Classified listing or it does but does not list said panelboard as an approved part of their Classified listing?
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
dwils1980 said:
Should this be going both ways though? If the panel lists different breakers as acceptable but the different breaker manufacturer either doesn't carry a Classified listing or it does but does not list said panelboard as an approved part of their Classified listing?
Click to expand...
One could have evaluated the combination being used together but the other did not.
 
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