Eaton BR and Siemens QP

[dwils1980]

One could have evaluated the combination being used together but the other did not.

With that said does one trump the other?

 

[Jraef]

Should this be going both ways though? If the panel lists different breakers as acceptable but the different breaker manufacturer either doesn't carry a Classified listing or it does but does not list said panelboard as an approved part of their Classified listing?

Ok, first off this is NOT going to apply to any panel listed after 1995, which is when UL changed the rules. That change meant that breakers are either “Specified” or “Classified”. Specified means that the PANEL MANUFACTURER has specified certain breakers from another manufacturer to be tested and listed for use in that panel. Since 1995 that is usually only their own, breakers but the exceptions are the smaller panel manufacturers such as Midwest who don’t make breakers.

So if a PANEL says it can be used with, for example Eaton/ Bryant BR, Siemens QP, Murray MP etc. then those breakers are SPECIFIED and thereby acceptable. But note that they will say ecact names of breaker lines, not just broadly state a manufacturer. So as an example, if they list Eaton/Bryant BR, then it is ONLY the BR line. The BR is not a “Classified” breaker. Eaton sells Classified breakers, they are the CL line and although they look similar to the BR, the testing and listing is different. So if a panel specifies that BR is acceptable, you cannot use the CL.

With Classified breakers, the BREAKER is listed in SPECIFIC panels, not generally any old panel from a competitive manufacturer. They have to have been tested together, which is expensive. So it is unlikely that Eaton (for example) would pay to test their CL breakers in a panel that is ALREADY specifying the BR breaker as acceptable. There would be no return on that investment.

If on the other hand you were looking at a Connecticut Electric brand of Classified breaker for a panel that listed BRs or QP, their Classified version MIGHT have been tested and listed in that panel, because CE has no other option to offer (as Eaton would).

But again, the tricky part to using Classified breakers is in that they are ONLY listed for use in the SPECIFIC panels that they were tested in. You cannot broadly apply them anywhere you want. When you buy them, they come with a list of acceptable panels. It’s a good idea to check that out on-line before you do though, save yourself from having to return them later.

 

[kwired]

I know at one time you could buy a classified breaker made by GE that fits Square D QO panels, probably even had one that fits Eaton's CH panels. Those make some sense, as those two product lines are different enough that nothing else physically fits them anyway. I don't know why one would bother to get a classified breaker to fit the somewhat universal design that is used by most 1 inch wide (single pole space) breakers out there, other than for some replacement in something that has been discontinued. Chances are the classified breaker will cost you more than the one made by the OEM.

 

[norcal]

I know at one time you could buy a classified breaker made by GE that fits Square D QO panels, probably even had one that fits Eaton's CH panels. Those make some sense, as those two product lines are different enough that nothing else physically fits them anyway. I don't know why one would bother to get a classified breaker to fit the somewhat universal design that is used by most 1 inch wide (single pole space) breakers out there, other than for some replacement in something that has been discontinued. Chances are the classified breaker will cost you more than the one made by the OEM.

Eaton, & Siemens, both make a UL classified replacement for some SQ D QO panels.

 

[kwired]

Eaton, & Siemens, both make a UL classified replacement for some SQ D QO panels.

I figured that is likely. Around here a genuine QO breaker is pretty readily available and probably cost less than purchasing any classified breaker to fit a QO panel. The GE version is just one I remember seeing in some local hardware store a long time ago. I don't know why they even had it as they also sold genuine QO breakers.

 

[norcal]

I figured that is likely. Around here a genuine QO breaker is pretty readily available and probably cost less than purchasing any classified breaker to fit a QO panel. The GE version is just one I remember seeing in some local hardware store a long time ago. I don't know why they even had it as they also sold genuine QO breakers.

I see no reason to use them either, if my memory serves me, they were only for single phase panels and not for use in series rated systems.
I have a couple of Cutler-Hammer CHB (bolt-on) 2 pole 100A breakers labeled as GE, but that was because Eaton was building their modular metering for them.

 

[tortuga]

Siemens never did it for their QPs, although they were already interchangeable with most Murray panels (not Arrow Hart / Murray or pre Crouse-Hinds / Murray) because when Siemens bought Murray from Crouse-Hinds, they switched to using the QP breakers in Murray panels with just changing the stickers (and UL files).

If I am not mistaken Siemens QP are also Listed for MP-T or whatever Murray was but not the other way around.

Connecticut Electric did it with a few legacy lines, that’s it.

Actually Connecticut Electric got a license from Siemens to test QP breakers in a bunch of panels including BR and sells a standard QP breaker as a 'classified' breaker. So you can use a QP breaker in a BR panel. You can find them in big box home improvement stores.

 

[Captorofsin1]

I see wrong breakers in panels all the time. (Homeline, too.) It doesn't seem to lead to problems, but in my opinion it's a sing of hack work.

Plug on neutral breakers are not physically interchangeable.

I just had a circumstance with an old Murray panel. Had to upgrade poll motor to gfci protection. The only siemens DP gfci breaker available was/is QPF. I tried VERY hard to install the siemens breaker. just would NOT install on the back "hooks"(where breaker hooks onto to opposite the bus bar). I reached out to Eaton to see if they manufactured a CL double pole GFCI breaker. The only manufacture BR gfci breakers. The best O could do was a BR style. The BR fit. looks to me it was that or nothing. Try telling a homeowner that they need to swap out a panel to install a breaker....

I have attached the spec sticker off the old murray panel and a "compatibility doc" that I got from murray.

 

[LarryFine]

So you can use a QP breaker in a BR panel.

Are you saying any QP, or one with a CL label?

 

[Jraef]

Your attachments are both the same.

If the Murray panel is old enough to SAY on its label that you can use the Bryant breakers, that’s fine.

 

[Captorofsin1]

Your attachments are both the same.

If the Murray panel is old enough to SAY on its label that you can use the Bryant breakers, that’s fine.

sorry about attachments. are bryant still manufactured? do they manufacture a gfci breaker?

I could not upload (even zip file) of pic of murray panel. States that ,"to order breakers specify NI style MP, EP, or EPI"

 

[g-and-h_electric]

Wait, wait....... Did the OP say new breaker in older Murray panel ????

If i read that right, i know why the breaker wont seat. Some (maybe all?) of the pan rails had 2 small rejection pieces under the "hook". These are designed to be removed with a special tool which I have never seen. They can be removed safely with a long nose plier AFTER turning off power to the panel.

I have had to do this, it isnt difficult, just needs care in doing it

Hope this helps.

Howard

 

[tortuga]

Are you saying any QP, or one with a CL label?

There was no extra label or stamp on those "Connecticut Electric" Siemens QP breakers, just a Siemens QP breaker in a plastic package.
I got them in 15-20A single pole and 15A - 60A two pole. I never saw GFCI or AFCI versions.
I keep one of the packages (sealed) in case an inspector asks.
If you cant find them locally they are always on ebay
Here is one auction:

3 Connecticut Electric ICBQ120 20 AMP Single Pole 120/240 Circuit Breakers. for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 3 Connecticut Electric ICBQ120 20 AMP Single Pole 120/240 Circuit Breakers. at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[LarryFine]

sorry about attachments. are bryant still manufactured? do they manufacture a gfci breaker?

Bryant, no. BR, yes; by Eaton.

Go by breaker type, not necessarily breaker manufacturer.

 

[Captorofsin1]

Wait, wait....... Did the OP say new breaker in older Murray panel ????

If i read that right, i know why the breaker wont seat. Some (maybe all?) of the pan rails had 2 small rejection pieces under the "hook". These are designed to be removed with a special tool which I have never seen. They can be removed safely with a long nose plier AFTER turning off power to the panel.

I have had to do this, it isnt difficult, just needs care in doing it

Hope this helps.

Howard

That sounds about right. The Siemens breaker wouldn't go at all. But the BR would go just fine.

 

[jaggedben]

Wait, wait....... Did the OP say new breaker in older Murray panel ????

If i read that right, i know why the breaker wont seat. Some (maybe all?) of the pan rails had 2 small rejection pieces under the "hook". These are designed to be removed with a special tool which I have never seen. They can be removed safely with a long nose plier AFTER turning off power to the panel.

I have had to do this, it isnt difficult, just needs care in doing it

Hope this helps.

Howard

I have never seen that. And I've seen plenty of old Murray panels. Curious. Anybody got a pic?

 

[brycenesbitt]

Here's an on topic Eaton memo, to add to the mud.
With all this confusion, anyone up for a return to Type S fuses?

 

[hillbilly1]

I remember some the marketing hype when Homeline first came out was interchangeability. They claimed they would plug into nearly all others with similar design but the others would not plug directly into a Homeline panel.

I've seen more Homelines plugged into other panels than I have seen others plugged into Homeline panels. Not sure if others changed to fit Homeline or if that was just rumor from the start of Homeline existence. I never really tried to plug others into Homeline myself so not really sure.

Maybe that wasn't official hype from Square D but rather from the distributor(s)?

Then there is Milbank, Midwest and a few others with pedestals, meter mains, etc. that list multiple breaker manufacturer lines as acceptable to plug into their equipment.

I think Siemens modified there’s to fit Homeline too now. At first, nobody’s fit Homeline.

 

[norcal]

I think Siemens modified there’s to fit Homeline too now. At first, nobody’s fit Homeline.

There is this FAQ from SQ D's parent company, https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA129931/

 

[jaggedben]

Here's an on topic Eaton memo, to add to the mud.
With all this confusion, anyone up for a return to Type S fuses?

Gosh so if I just read the breaker types on the panel label and replace with a breaker that says it's that type on the breaker, then basically I'm good.