Eaton BR and Siemens QP

[LarryFine]

Gosh so if I just read the breaker types on the panel label and replace with a breaker that says it's that type on the breaker, then basically I'm good.

Exactamundo.

 

[brycenesbitt]

Exactamundo.

Until.... you run into a combination of the exact same series and type and fit, that nobody bothered to put on the chart.
Then you're screwed.

 

[Jraef]

Until.... you run into a combination of the exact same series and type and fit, that nobody bothered to put on the chart.
Then you're screwed.

That will only apply to panels installed prior to 1995. After that, the other brand options are not going to show on the labels (for most brands).

 

[jaggedben]

Until.... you run into a combination of the exact same series and type and fit, that nobody bothered to put on the chart.
Then you're screwed.

Not sure you got the point.

For the Eaton Type BR/Type C/Type A series, the presently manufactured new breakers have the types written on the breaker that match the old panel labels. You don't need a chart, it's right on the breaker and panels, as long as the panel label is still extant. Doesn't matter if the panel label is branded Bryant, Westinghouse, Challenger, Cutler Hammer, Eaton or something else. So your complaint doesn't apply to this general series. (The one weird exception is the Thomas and Betts Type TB which I think is also identical but apparently got listed as a different type so is not officially okay.)

For Siemens/Murray/ITE/Gould it's a little less straightforward, Siemens seems to like to play games with this and invented new type designations for what seem to be the same breakers. So while the MP and Q and EQ types are identical (afaict), only some Siemens panels will mention MP type on the label. And of course older Murray panels won't mention the Q type. So you will need to find documentation that the Q is a replacement for the MP and EQ. That documentation exists if your AHJ is reasonable.

The Homeline HOM type has been consistent for Square-D since they started making it. No issue there.

The fact that all these breakers physically fit into each others panels just fine and very rarely cause problems when that is done does not mean they are listed to be used in each other.

Other common plug-on form factors (CH and QO, and some GE breakers although that's also complicated) are not physically compatible.

 

[kwired]

I think Siemens modified there’s to fit Homeline too now. At first, nobody’s fit Homeline.

I had a well guy stick a Siemens breaker in my Homeline panel on a project recently. Yes it fit, but it did not fit as well as a Homeline. It would not push on as far as a Homeline does, which made the panel cover not fit all that well either. Not that Homeline covers always fit great in the first place. Ones loaded with AFCI/GFCI breakers tend to be worse than panels without any of those types from my observations. IIRC there was a recessed spot (not by very much) that the Homeline breaker had near the bus plug that none of Siemens, GE and Eaton BR has that clears a bump on either the bus itself or on the plastic bus support frame.

 

[Fred B]

I had a well guy stick a Siemens breaker in my Homeline panel on a project recently. Yes it fit, but it did not fit as well as a Homeline. It would not push on as far as a Homeline does, which made the panel cover not fit all that well either. Not that Homeline covers always fit great in the first place. Ones loaded with AFCI/GFCI breakers tend to be worse than panels without any of those types from my observations. IIRC there was a recessed spot (not by very much) that the Homeline breaker had near the bus plug that none of Siemens, GE and Eaton BR has that clears a bump on either the bus itself or on the plastic bus support frame.

GE 1 inch in anything but a GE panel is not a good idea. Almost have to hammer it in and use a bar to remove on foreign panels. Bus design of GE is thinner on the stab fins than the other brands. Visa-versa for other brands into a GE panel, it will sit in loose.
Never seen a non SD panel other than off brand that will list HOM as an option.
BR (Eaton), MP (Murray, now owned and discontinued by Siemens), QP (Siemens), are all very similar but most times not listed to each other. Then seen guys trying to load Eaton or Siemens tandems into the opposite panel brand and it will not sit down correctly, sometimes not even close.
Add to risk factor that in the event of a fire the insurance might deny a claim for a foreign breaker being in a panel, and IF you are the one that installed a "technically non compliant" breaker you could be left holding the bag, or scrambling to get a "Letter" showing it was compliant.

 

[kwired]

Never seen a non SD panel other than off brand that will list HOM as an option.

Milbank and Midwest are two I can think of I've frequently run into that don't have their own breaker line for their products. Both will list pretty much any those so called interchangeable design breakers as suitable to use in their products.

 

[retirede]

Milbank and Midwest are two I can think of I've frequently run into that don't have their own breaker line for their products. Both will list pretty much any those so called interchangeable design breakers as suitable to use in their products.

Hayward pool panels also list HOM as compatible.

 

[tortuga]

For Siemens/Murray/ITE/Gould it's a little less straightforward, Siemens seems to like to play games with this and invented new type designations for what seem to be the same breakers. So while the MP and Q and EQ types are identical (afaict), only some Siemens panels will mention MP type on the label. And of course older Murray panels won't mention the Q type.

Thanks to Connecticut Electric (CE) for paying for the UL Classified testing of Siemens QP line you can use a
full size standard QP (No GFCI / AFCI / GFPE) as a Classified any of the following list of panelboards.
No additional mark or stamp is required on the QP Breaker to use it as a Classified, you just need one still sealed in the Connecticut Electric packaging. See photo in post 27
As as soon as you open the package there is no way to tell the Siemens breaker from any other.
I have about 6 still sealed in the packaging to show to inspectors as I think CE has since quit doing it this way and now makes their own breakers.
Here is the list on the package that indicates what breaker types the QP was tested as a replacement of:
Challanger Type; C
General Electric; THQL
Murray; MP
T&B; TB
Westinghouse; BR

Panelboards (marked for the above breaker types) are:
American Switch,
Arrow-Hart Challanger (Full Size),
Crouse Hinds (full size),
Cutler-Hammer BR,
Electri center,
Frank Adams,
G.T.E Sylvania
General switch,
General Electric (Full size),
Gould,
Montgomery Ward,
Murray (Full size),
Thomas & Betts,
Westinghouse,

I have only ever seen this in standard Full size QP one and two pole,
no twins, no GFCI / AFCI / GFPE etc. EDIT: they may be out there I just never have seen them.
Note also the absence of HOM

 

[hillbilly1]

I had a well guy stick a Siemens breaker in my Homeline panel on a project recently. Yes it fit, but it did not fit as well as a Homeline. It would not push on as far as a Homeline does, which made the panel cover not fit all that well either. Not that Homeline covers always fit great in the first place. Ones loaded with AFCI/GFCI breakers tend to be worse than panels without any of those types from my observations. IIRC there was a recessed spot (not by very much) that the Homeline breaker had near the bus plug that none of Siemens, GE and Eaton BR has that clears a bump on either the bus itself or on the plastic bus support frame.

A counter guy at my local supply house was telling a customer that they would fit, I told them I didn’t think they would, but the counter guy was insisting it would. I haven’t tried it, but I assumed he knew his product. I reckon it’s true what they say when you AssUme! LOL!

 

[Fred B]

Milbank and Midwest are two I can think of I've frequently run into that don't have their own breaker line for their products. Both will list pretty much any those so called interchangeable design breakers as suitable to use in their products.

Those are off brand in that they don't make their own breakers.

 

[Jraef]

A counter guy at my local supply house was telling a customer that they would fit, I told them I didn’t think they would, but the counter guy was insisting it would. I haven’t tried it, but I assumed he knew his product. I reckon it’s true what they say when you AssUme! LOL!

“Will it fit?” is not a valid approach. The correct question is “Can it be used?”

Read NEC 110.3. If the instructions FOR THE LISTING OF THE PRODUCT does not say that you can, you cannot.it really isn’t any more complicated than that (unless you are talking about old panels).

 

[infinity]

Why is this so much more complicated than it has to be? If all of the panels were required to use the same standard regarding bus stab size and mounting means they could all be interchangeable.

 

[Little Bill]

Why is this so much more complicated than it has to be?

$$$

 

[infinity]

$$$

I'm guessing that the guilty party is UL since they likely wrote the standard. Or maybe it's NEMA, either way the public is getting hosed because these circuit breakers (absent Square D QO) are almost all identical.

 

[jaggedben]

Why is this so much more complicated than it has to be? If all of the panels were required to use the same standard regarding bus stab size and mounting means they could all be interchangeable.

I'm actually a bit surprised that any are physically interchangeable in the first place. The history must be weird that there were no patent infringements.

 

[jaggedben]

I'm guessing that the guilty party is UL since they likely wrote the standard. Or maybe it's NEMA, either way the public is getting hosed because these circuit breakers (absent Square D QO) are almost all identical.

Listings are UL not NEMA.

I'm not sure that it's UL's fault per se but those listings are clearly part of the game. I don't quite understand why it was apparently okay to copy or license technology but then pay for UL to list it again as something different. I understand why UL would be happy to take the money and they were not the ones doing the copying, but not so much why there wasn't a lawsuit at some point to put a stop to the copying.

 

[infinity]

I'm actually a bit surprised that any are physically interchangeable in the first place. The history must be weird that there were no patent infringements.

There are many of these different brands that all fit in competitors panels listed, classified or not. This should be a simple as when you go to screw on a receptacle cover it fits whatever brand receptacle you installed. If the panels were all required to be made to the same specifications then the breakers would be interchangeable just like most everything else in this business.

 

[qcroanoke]

Why is this so much more complicated than it has to be? If all of the panels were required to use the same standard regarding bus stab size and mounting means they could all be interchangeable.

Who are you and what have you done with Infinity? (Rob)

 

[norcal]

Milbank and Midwest are two I can think of I've frequently run into that don't have their own breaker line for their products. Both will list pretty much any those so called interchangeable design breakers as suitable to use in their products.

Milbank I think uses Siemens interiors in their products, Midwest is GE/ABB so assume GE interiors.