Econmics vs workmanship

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Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Made a service call yesterday. "My outside lights won't work". Check for voltage at light (no juice). Check for voltage at switch (no juice). Check breakers (no trip). After climbing thru the attic and finding a JB that looked likely, I pulled on some conductors and sure enough one slipped out of a wire nut (4 #12 under a red). Removed the nut and sure enough no twist. I twisted the wires together, installed the nut and the problem was fixed. I always twist the wires, this electrician didn't.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

You can spin it any way you choose. When you pre-twist the wires they form a "barrel" shape. They pretty much have made their own structural connection. At this point the wire connector (wire-nut if it's Ideal) does not add much to the connection. The wire connector does not contact as much surface area of the wire when you pretwist.

If you don't pre-twist the wire connector gets a good bite on the wires and as you continue to twist the wires the wires conform to the tapered shape of the connector and there is more surface area of wire contacting the taper of the wire connector.

I have observed pre-twisted wires losing the whole nut-- it's loose and falls off.

I'm onboard with Ed.: Do the twisting after the nut is on.

It would be hard to prove which is better.

I've seen them go South both ways.

These tools might help too (I don't use them):
Wing-Nut? Wire Connector Socket
2.DD8


Wing-Nut? Wire Connector Tool
2.3938
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Originally posted by awwt:
It would be hard to prove which is better.

I've seen them go South both ways.
Click to expand...
I agree, a bad connection can be made either way if the installer does not care about what they are doing.

Now what about Wagos? :(
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

...A *properly* installed wire nut (not one of those "plumber special" type connections you always find on water heaters!) will indeed twist up the conductors very well as its torqued down. I've done it both ways, pre-twist and allow the nut to do it and saw no difference in the end result when I took the nuts off.
Of course it has to do with the size and number of wires but there is no way I'm going to believe that you are going to be able twist a connection with the wire nut and your fingers as well as you can with a pair of linesmans. How long do those plastic "wrenches" last? Why bother.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

When I do temporary splices to provide power to a circuit for tracing or testing or for temporary utilization until a more permanent circuit can be installed, and because these are never in place for more than a couple of hours, I just put the wire nut on the untwisted conductors to save a couple of seconds here and there.

While I have never had a problem with the temporary splices coming apart, I have never seen the wires wind together like they do when you twist them with Kleins. Not even close. I don't know how hard you guys are twisting these wire nuts. If you're using a wrench it's a lot harder than I do it; mine are always finger tight. But I definitely believe that properly pretwisted wires provide a much better mechanical and electrical connection than those held together by the wire nut.

Here's one for you: When you put a conductor on a device screw, like a receptacle, do you simply wrap it in a "U" or do you wrap it completely around the screw?

-John
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

I just thought of a workaround for you. Put your Kleins on the Wire Connector (Wire-Nut? if you use Ideal :) ).

../Wayne C.

[ September 26, 2003, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Originally posted by awwt:

Wing-Nut? Wire Connector Tool
:mad: than any other tool I can think of! There is nothing worse than going into a J-box to trouble shoot or add or delete wires and finding that somebody used one of these and twisted all 8" of conductor all the way to the back of the box, making me untwist it with my linesmans for 10 minutes.

I wouldn't allow them on a job i was running. No exceptions.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

I try to avoid WingNuts - too squishy. I've poked valid wire combinations through the top of them too many times whilst honking the thing down (and I'm real careful about lining up the ends before putting it on). Reds have been big offenders on this poke through... The Yellow Wingnuts feel odd, I guess the best descriptive term might be "vague" when being torqued up. I really dislike those things. The traditional wire nut has a much more distinct feel for when its gone as far as its going to go.

A traditional wire nut takes much better to the lineman pliers for the final snugging up than wingnuts.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Big John

There use to be an inspector that would fail you if the loop (the end) went all the way around the screw and "touched" the wire.

Mike P.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

I twist too, most of the time. But, when I us an "L" spinner hand held wirenut twister or with a cordless drill wire nut spinner, when the nut is undone it looks just like I did it with linemans.

Also I occasionally us "wago" connectors. I push the wire in and fold them half and if the wire is pulled it only pushes the "wago" nut on tighter.

You "old dogs" need to learn some new tricks that are both effective and economical.

Hey guys if your not progressing your going backwords, and every one else is leaving you behind.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Addendum to last post,
with photos.

Three twist methods
three twists, which is which?

They all three look good to me!!!
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[ September 30, 2003, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: scottkilgore ]
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Welcome Scott. :)

Here is your photo, maybe you can explain the 3 ways these splices where done. :)

splices.jpg
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

I have always twisted my connections with solid wire and then the wire nut.Stranded can be difficult sometimes I usually let the wire nut make the twist but I have caught myself on ocasion pretwisting the wires depending on the number of conduters. I really dont like to chase down loose neutrals or any other connection on a trouble call because somebody was either to lazy or just rushing the job to make a simple twist.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Iwire,

Concerning your picture, I dunno about the one on the left. That is, I don't think it's a good idea to splice a neutral to the two hot wires. But the twist looks good!

~Peter
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Originally posted by peter:
Iwire,

Concerning your picture, I dunno about the one on the left. That is, I don't think it's a good idea to splice a neutral to the two hot wires. But the twist looks good!

~Peter
Click to expand...
Peter I just helped out scottkilgore, he tried to post this picture and it did not work.

I can not tell anything about this pic.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Here's one for you: When you put a conductor on a device screw, like a receptacle, do you simply wrap it in a "U" or do you wrap it completely around the screw? -John

You never want to wrap a wire around a screw more than 180 degrees. You don't want it to overlap itself under the screw. With smaller gauge wire the overlap will notch the wire where it crosses and it will easily break off. This is the first thing (or should be the first thing)telecom installers are taught.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Originally posted by hurk27:
This one is easy
The three neutrals were done by the drill
The red,black,neutral was done by kline's
The red and two black's was done by the hand twister
Click to expand...
How in the world can you tell that? The only guess I might've been able to drag up was that the three whites were done by a pair of Kleins because they look like they might be sorta scratched up, as can happen in the jaws of those pliers. But that's probably my eyes playing tricks on me.

-John
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Big John
If you have ever tryed thes new fangled ways it would be easy.
Look at the three neutrals at how far up it is twisted this is because most drills overrun and twist the wires farther up from the bare copper.
When you use a pare of klines you hold the wires close to the ends to keep them grouped this is why they get the least over turns up the wire. the last of course would be the hand tool which like the drill tend to over turn the wire-nut too but not as much as the drill.

P.S. the wire-nut was most likely in place when it was installed and the spring in side of it can make the same marks

[ September 29, 2003, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Thank you Iwire for the assist, I fixed the post link to the photo.

Here is the answer to "which is which" wire twist methods.

The Three whites were done with the hand twister.
The red, black, and white with the drill twister.
The red, black, and black with the linemans.

Normally, if I have a small number of spices to make, I use the linemans, I strip about 3/4 of an inch, line up the insulation ends, and then cut a 1/8" to 1/4" off the end at an angle to make a clean well fitting end. If there are alot of spices maybe 8 or more to do I will assymbly line the prep, strip, twist with the drill. With the drill it only takes a few splices to find the right clutch setting that is perfect, also I hold the wires apart as you can see on the red, black, and white connection that prevents the rest of the wire from spinning up. I only use the hand spinner if my hand is in pain with carpel tunnel syndrom from repetative twisting and my drill is broken.

Another factor for me with proper connections is the wire nut brand. I mostly use the beige 3M twisters. I dislike the red and yellow Ideal nuts, I think they are garbage and toss them away.

I seem to recall going through this entire verbal process with the Master Journeyman\contractor I apprenticed under 14yrs ago in Idaho. He usually did things the lineman wire twist out of habit but was willing to learn to or allow me to do the job a different way if I could prove that it was as effective and took the same or less time to perform.

This takes us back to the topic of "workmanship vs economics". I have been contracting now for over two years and find that I use some materials or methods that will save me time and prevent call backs which equals money. I do not believe that any one way is the only way. I believe there are many ways to perform most tasks and have be done in a workmanlike and economical manner.
 
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