Econmics vs workmanship

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Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Re: wraping solid wire around screw.

I use the hole on my strippers to bend a "U", then put it around the screw and crip it closed around the screw. I strip just enough that when I crimp the wire it bends 270degrees to 300 degrees tight around the screw. That way the wire will not fall off or squish out while tightening. they may touch but never cross.

With stranded wire I strip about 5/16" off then strip another 5/16" down and pull it just past the end of the wire strands to hold them. I then wrap the hand twisted bare part around the screw accross itself making an "X" under the screw then tighten while holding the "X".

As I said on the last post I will do what it takes time and material wise to be workmanlike and economic. this method prevents call backs, fires, etc. that's economical even though it takes longer.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Manufacturers of insulated twist-on wire connectors suggest you not hand-twist the wires together before applying the connector. The wires will bond properly if inserted straight, but you risk making a poor connection if you pre-twist.
Click to expand...
Coming from Mike Holt or not, I'd be interested to know what information that quote is based on. I'm having a hard time believing that.

It seems to me, that versus untwisted wires, properly twisted conductors creates contact between a lot more surface area on each wire. This provides a better electrical connection. And the twisting action obviously keeps the splice mechanically solid.

I'd be willing to bet that a twisted splice with no wire nut would provide a connection that is at least as reliable and long lasting as a splice done by capping untwisted conductors with a wirenut.

As long as a wire nut is screwed onto a twisted splice in the same direction as the conductors were twisted, it seems to me it would only serve to reinforce the solidity of the splice.

If anyone has any information that actually confirms the quote at the top, I'd be interested to hear it.

-John
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Big John
I have to agree with the twisting method, that's what was taught in school from day one.Twist the wires and use the kliens to tighten up the wire nut.
Very rare is it that a twisted splice comes apart when taken off the wire nut!!
I believe a twisted splice is better than relying on a plastic coated spring to twist and maintain a good connection with out fallen apart.
:)
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

As an apprentice I was taught to always twist with my Kleins, to make a splice that was mechanically sound in and of itself before applying the wire nut. As I progressed in the field I heard varying theories regarding this, and not wanting to discount anything out of hand tried several methods.

My experience is that if your free wire is long enough (new installation) a properly applied wire nut will twist the conductors together tightly, without damaging their surface as linemans will. The splice remains tight after the nut is removed, provided it was installed correctly the first time. In re-work, I often find wire shorter than I would like (imagine that?!) with tension on it in odd directions, I find it best to train them together and twist with the pliers before using the nut.

I won't say either method is always right or wrong, but I would suggest this to those that insist on using the pliers on "every" solid wire splice. Make a few sample splices, don't go soft on them because they are samples. Get a good strong magnifiying glass and look at the damage to the conductor, and the gaps in the twist....you will be suprised.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Well put, I pretwist many splices and other ones I do not, a great splice can be made either way if you try.

I let the guys that work under my supervision use the method they are comfortable with.

Some beginners do poorly twisting combinations of conductors.

Solid 12 awg on to solid 10 awg is a tough one, using linesmen the 12 wants to wrap around the 10 with the 10 staying straight.

Do the same splice with a wire nut using a tool to twist the wire nut and it comes out perfect.

Just because you do not pretwist does not mean just barely put the wire nut on, you still twist up the wire using the wire nut as the means.

[ October 02, 2003, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

How many of you guys have been in a J box trouble shooting and take off a wire nut, and the splice springs apart, needless to say this can be very dangerous. This has happened to many times for me and if those splices were twisted, it would not have happened. Also probably at least 5% of the time the trouble has been a wire that has pulled out of a wire nut, that has not been twisted. I'm still a staunch believer in twisting.

[ October 02, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: bclymer ]
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Pretwist or not, it is a preferece and if done properly both will yield the same result. If you pull off a wire nut and the wires fall apart, it was not done correct either way.

I expect my guys to have the wires twist with each other at least 3 revolutions and tug on them, becuase it kills me to have a call back for a loose wire.

As a new business owner I have had to learn to let my employees do their job the way they feel most comfortable, if the end result is the same it makes no difference to me how someone got there.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Originally posted by iwire:
Solid 12 awg on to solid 10 awg is a tough one
Click to expand...
Did some #10 to #14 last night working on mom's place. The outside recepticals were #14 running a horrendous path (that included two bathroom recepticals, three lights, and a garage receptical) and I was measuring over 10% drop at the far points. The #14 tapped #10 squared away the outside recepticals (now on their own 15A branch). Well under 3% VD even at 15A load :)

Aside from the blatant code violation aspects of the above I've been fixing, do people really think running #14 for any distance is going to work WRT voltage drop?!?!
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

this may be a non-sequitur, but...

remember that it is not appropriate to pre-twist fire alarm wiring before inserting it under a screw terminal. these circuits are designed to indicate a trouble should one of the conductors come loose, and that indication may not come if the twisted conductors fall off the terminal without seperating from one another.
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

For solid conductors, I used to pre-twist.

Then I found the wire nut driver by 3M. Use it in a power screwdriver (started w/Milwaulkeee 2.4V, now Panasonic 3.6V or DeWalt 7.2V). The wires are twisted together by the wirenut, and the mechanical connection is as good or better than when twisted using side-cuts (IMHO).

It takes a little care to make sure the insulated part of the conductors don't get twisted way up, but once you get the touch, it's a slick as can be. And it's really fast.

I recently found out about a USA-made wirenut (excuusse me!--wire conector) that's got a recess in the head so a regular #2 Phillips can be used to drive it. Called "scru-it"--the company has a good website. More expensive than Ideal Wing-Nuts, but no need to be changing out the P2 bit and 3M driver. This = more speed.

For stranded + solid splices, I use the 3M hand wirenut driver (like a speed driver [dogleg shaft] w/the wirenut socket fixed on the end). It's light to carry in my bags, and a lot easier on your hand/wrist than spinning them on by hand. I've done a lot of can lights, never had a bad splice once I started using this method. And did I mention that it's fast?

Cliff
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

I have complete faith in pretwisting solid wires with my linemans. Pulling as you twist makes a uniform connection. As far as stranded to solid connections, we can never be 100% sure of our connections. On all my connections, I have found the "winged" wire connectors work the best. I use a 3M wirenut wrench on multible connections and found it to be a lifesaver to your hands.

What do you think about the green wirenuts with the hole in the end?
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Amp Dude,
You mentioned "no need to be changing out the P2 bit and 3M driver. This = more speed.". You will notice a notch or groove on the shank of the red 3M driver. This makes it compatible with the various quick change systems available today for screwguns, drills, etc. This makes the bit changing very quick. I like the Sear's version myself and always use it.
Back to topic: At present, I pre-twist. This visibly insures that all the wires are twisted. In some confugurations, it is possible for some of the wires to wrap themselves around one central wire which doesn't get twisted. I used the 3M for a while and eventually had to undo some of these connections to add another circuit and noticed this sometimes happening. The center wire isn't grabbed by the threads in the wire nut and is free to slip out. This seems more likely with four or more conductors.
~Peter
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

I'm a Twister too, and I think I learned that from Chubby Checkers... just kidding.. I learned to twist in 1959, when we were given 5 or 6 different brands of wire to work with, and my Lead proved to me that twisting was the only way to be sure the connection was solid... For 3 months straight, he made me confirm every splice and connection with an Ohm meter, before hookup.. We didn't know what "Wings" were, except on Airplanes...

I really like this Forum, you guys detail everything...
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Peter,

Roger that, both the 3M socket and the P2 are standard 1/4" hex drive. And the cordless drivers I use both have quick-release chucks for the 1/4 QR. But, switching bits still takes time.

What part of California (or as the our Gov.-elect says, "Cal-eee-forn-i-a") are you in? I'm in Sacramento...the town with two zoos (the Land PArk Zoo, and the Legislature).

Cliff
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Twist away......
That is basic splicing 101

[ November 26, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: charlie ]
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Mcandels, is it me, or are you using your posts to promote your web site?

Just curious.

Roger
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

any one still use the old "twist and tape"method! work in an industrial environment and the tape around the twisted wires works real good. You can even make better splices in that j-box without worrying about the wire "nut" vibrating loose. easy to get off too! just find that loose end of the tape and yank it off! don't use the 50 cent roll....use the good stuff!
 
Re: Econmics vs workmanship

Looks like I'm in the minority but thats all right. I just make sure the ends are even and wind the nut on. A pull after to make sure everything is secure.
Thats my TCW
 
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