Electric utility "sealing" customer's access

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That is the type of panel.
I don't see the problem here. Nothing that a pair of dykes won't fix.
I'll get you pic of a real lock ring one that requires a special key or a cutoff wheel to remove.
 
nhfire77 said:
I don't have a copy of the NESC, but I bet it states you cannot block access to the MDP, maybe not specifically but something in there would apply to this situation.
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I really doubt it.

Can you put an MDP in a locked room?

Would you have to wait for someone with a key to gain access?
 
Now that I see the pic, I understand the problem, but like sierrasparky said, doesn't seem like anything that couldn't be over come. The pic that he's going to show you would really cause you problems.

I think that's just poor design by the manufacturer. There's no reason you should have to take off the whole front just to get to one breaker.
 
It is not so much poor design by the manufacturer----this one was ITE, but T&B, Challenger, Crouse Hinds and others all had this design----and it worked fine for years with the seals that were being used at the time----which are still available. Once I or another serviceman come on the situation and notify the utility they will send someone to change it to a seal that works with the cover. If you cut the seal to get the cover open (does not involve removing the meter) you will be fined $100---they put it on my home electric bill and threatened to cut power to my house if I didn't pay. Then you can decide if you are going to bill your customer while you sit in the truck and wait for the utility---or eat it yourself. Picture -20 below in the dark 30 miles from town and a 4 hour bill (at this time of day the utility guy has to be awakened at home, dressed, drive to his shop to get a rig, and come to my job) to change a 2 pole snap in breaker or tighten a lug on a neutral---it's obviously ridiculous, but that's not moving them---I need a a code or some compliance article I can cite to get them to correct their mistake of putting the wrong seals on these meters---btw, thanks to everyone for your input so far, seems like if this is not a code issue, it should be---Kelly
 
KASIII said:
It is not so much poor design by the manufacturer----this one was ITE, but T&B, Challenger, Crouse Hinds and others all had this design----and it worked fine for years with the seals that were being used at the time----which are still available. Once I or another serviceman come on the situation and notify the utility they will send someone to change it to a seal that works with the cover. If you cut the seal to get the cover open (does not involve removing the meter) you will be fined $100---they put it on my home electric bill and threatened to cut power to my house if I didn't pay. Then you can decide if you are going to bill your customer while you sit in the truck and wait for the utility---or eat it yourself. Picture -20 below in the dark 30 miles from town and a 4 hour bill (at this time of day the utility guy has to be awakened at home, dressed, drive to his shop to get a rig, and come to my job) to change a 2 pole snap in breaker or tighten a lug on a neutral---it's obviously ridiculous, but that's not moving them---I need a a code or some compliance article I can cite to get them to correct their mistake of putting the wrong seals on these meters---btw, thanks to everyone for your input so far, seems like if this is not a code issue, it should be---Kelly
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Herer the utility is not quite so hardcore about removing the tags, as long as you let them know. That being said, every new meter and every meter change is getting a locking ring now.
 
KAS they actually fined you the electrician for removing someone elses seal. You have got to be kidding.
You city or state has some big problems. I'd be threatening them with legal issues if that happend to me. Your biz is seperate from your home. To put a BIZ charge on a home bill is outrageous. Most POCO are Public utilities and must follow rules. I seriously doubt what the tried was legitimate.
Are they acusing you of tampering with a meter.
Who is the POCO?
 
Sierrasparky said:
KAS they actually fined you the electrician for removing someone elses seal. You have got to be kidding.
You city or state has some big problems. I'd be threatening them with legal issues if that happend to me.
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Here removing a seal is in fact punishable by law, I don't personally know anyone that has been charged.
 
iwire said:
Here removing a seal is in fact punishable by law, I don't personally know anyone that has been charged.
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I think ours specifies theft as punishable, not just the case of breaking the seal for legitimate purposes.
 
We can remove a seal if we call POCO and tell them. If you pull the meter you have to have an inspection or they will turn off your power till they get a copy of the inspection. They are using those seals where they have been issues in the past.
 
iwire said:
Here removing a seal is in fact punishable by law, I don't personally know anyone that has been charged.
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Seal removal without the permission of the POCO in our territory has been in effect for many years. Years ago, theft was so bad, that if one got caught cutting the seal, the fine was very large.

The rule/law is still in effect today, except there has been a change in the "permission" situation. The POCOs around here now require the EC to do work that only the POCO used to do. The POCO workforce has been sliced down 40% in the last 10 years.
So removing the ring or lock is usually accompanied with " we saw sparks" and everyone goes home happy. :cool:
 
KASIII said:
It is not so much poor design by the manufacturer----this one was ITE, but T&B, Challenger, Crouse Hinds and others all had this design----and it worked fine for years with the seals that were being used at the time----which are still available. Once I or another serviceman come on the situation and notify the utility they will send someone to change it to a seal that works with the cover. If you cut the seal to get the cover open (does not involve removing the meter) you will be fined $100---they put it on my home electric bill and threatened to cut power to my house if I didn't pay. Then you can decide if you are going to bill your customer while you sit in the truck and wait for the utility---or eat it yourself. Picture -20 below in the dark 30 miles from town and a 4 hour bill (at this time of day the utility guy has to be awakened at home, dressed, drive to his shop to get a rig, and come to my job) to change a 2 pole snap in breaker or tighten a lug on a neutral---it's obviously ridiculous, but that's not moving them---I need a a code or some compliance article I can cite to get them to correct their mistake of putting the wrong seals on these meters---btw, thanks to everyone for your input so far, seems like if this is not a code issue, it should be---Kelly
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Yes...you bill the customer for the time waiting for POCO to show up. It is not your design or fault that POCO can't think things through correctly.
Let the customer bring up the bill and try to recieve reimbursment for your charges.
 
glene77is said:
Power,
This may be the Political Key to getting a change!
Get the Fire Marshal involved.
:)
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The breaker is still able to be turned off. In addition, the FM or FF has the authority to cut the lock off in an emergency situation without it taking an inordinate amount of time.

I think this argument will fall on deaf ears.

Maybe using the argument of impeding the customers right/ability to service the customer side of the meter... without involving the POCO. If you have to call them, then how can it be your responsibility to maintain.

Even if this argument holds water, it will likely be a nightmare to hold the POCO to it. If they have so much power that they can bill your home account, it might take a lawsuit to resolve this.

90.2 (B) NOT COVERED - (5) Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility where such installations
a. Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated
metering, or...

I would argue that if access to this meter is "under the exclusive control" of POCO, then it doesn't fall under the NEC, but the NESC and that they are responsible to maintain the whole thing.
 
I would make a trip to the poco and try to work out some kind of understanding peacefully. A call telling them you are xxx from xxx company and need to cut the seal should be enough for most. If they say no then ask them for a letter stating there rules and make several copies. Hand customer 1 and then give them a choice of paying you to sit or return. How far this would go in court is hard to say. Some might even give you the new tags to seal it back up. If this is in a hood that high power theft then i can understand there side too.
POCO does have POWER LOL.

I would go to court over the $100 that is abuse on there part.
Why not play the game with them. Tell them your inspecting every main breaker at every site your doing work at even if your not really doing it. That will start being costly to them.
 
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