Electrical panel sales

[roger]

Absolutely, positively no way. I am a DIYer and do all kinds of other trade work like plumbing and heating when needed. I would strongly dislike being restricted from buying those products that I need for that kind of work.

:thumbsup:

Roger

 

[LarryFine]

I'm an EC. I'm not sure what HD's are like in Canada. Where I live, they are fully stocked with what I need to do electrical work. I do jobs in a 30 mile radius from my house and there is a HD not more than 15 minutes drive from any location. I buy 99% of my materials there and the other 1% at supply houses. Supply houses are more expensive (sometimes by double), and less convenient. Oh and I see lots of other EC's and their employee's shopping there too.

I'm with you; I will price both for major items, but the orange and blue stores are hard to beat when it comes to panels and breakers.

Also, there's a big advantage to being able to look at and pick up parts when having to improvise an unusual assembly of some kind.

 

[electrofelon]

What annoys me more is the parking spaces marked for pros only. I see all sorts of "civilians" parked there. IMHO if the vehicle doesn't have a licence number on it or a copy of a licence in the window, the car should be towed. (I'm not kidding.)

My friend and I (not totally) joke that licensed contractors should be able to use the car pool/hov lanes

 

[drcampbell]

... The seller was a licensed GC but it was still a Flipper special.
By the way, the panel was new and it looked great. All the wire that was visible in the basement was new an looked great. The very first place they could hide their work they set a box and connected to old knob and tub wiring.

Maybe the answer lies in increased scrutiny of quickly-resold, non-owner-occupied buildings, not restricting the sale of materials to the general public.

 

[jeff48356]

What annoys me more is the parking spaces marked for pros only. I see all sorts of "civilians" parked there. IMHO if the vehicle doesn't have a licence number on it or a copy of a licence in the window, the car should be towed. (I'm not kidding.)

Not all contractors drive trucks. I'm an EC, and I am able to handle everything with a Chevy Impala. I only do residential work, so I seldom need to carry anything that doesn't fit easily into a car.

 

[jaggedben]

The big blue and orange stores were totally developed around the idea of cutting out contractors and specialty supply stores and selling to the general public for DIY projects. Not likely they'll ever voluntarily restrict who can buy from them.

The only companies I've heard of restricting sales are manufacturers who want to ensure a certain reputation for quality by ensuring that only properly trained people install their stuff, i.e. 'certified installers.' Tesla has done that with Powerwall, for example. Other examples I can think of are not electrical equipment. But things like breaker panels don't really fall into that category, both because they're so ubiquitous and because they had really better not fail no matter who installs them. And they generally don't.

 

[mbrooke]

I need your opinions here: Do you think big-box stores and electrical supply houses should restrict sales of panels to licensed electrical contractors only? HVAC has been doing that already for decades. Only a licensed HVAC contractor can purchase a furnace or an A/C condenser. So why should electrical be any different? It would surely cut down on hacks such as in the video below, if they no longer have easy access to panels.

Home Depot, for example, could probably implement this rather easily. They already have a policy where you need to show your ID at the register if you buy spray paint, to prove that you're at least 18. They could start a policy where you have to show a valid electrical contractor (or master electrician) license in order to buy a panel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJsfzzqaOAA

As history has shown making a product or service illegal will cause a black market to develop. Shady guys with license will see the $$$ opportunity finding a way to sell electrical parts to the public at an inflated price. People will also shop used equipment online instead of buying a new sub-panel.

 

[mbrooke]

Absolutely, positively no way. I am a DIYer and do all kinds of other trade work like plumbing and heating when needed. I would strongly dislike being restricted from buying those products that I need for that kind of work.

Same here, and honestly if you know what you are doing it can be better then the pros not only by the effort put into it but knowing where to apply and design for your needs.

 

[MAC702]

What annoys me more is the parking spaces marked for pros only. I see all sorts of "civilians" parked there. IMHO if the vehicle doesn't have a licence number on it or a copy of a licence in the window, the car should be towed. (I'm not kidding.)

I park there every day. There are no markings except for an Orioles bird on my truck.

 

[MAC702]

My friend and I (not totally) joke that licensed contractors should be able to use the car pool/hov lanes

Now, THAT idea has a lot of merit. We aren't commuting. We are WORKING.

 

[oldsparky52]

Same here, and honestly if you know what you are doing it can be better then the pros not only by the effort put into it but knowing where to apply and design for your needs.

I agree completely. The "pros" often hire incompetent workers. I used to shake my head often at the people working in the field. It is amazing how many people are performing work w/out understanding what it is they are doing.

 

[ken44]

If someone comes into a home in Texas and does shoddy work, you report them to the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation. And from what I have seen over the years, plenty of licensed contractors have done some shoddy work. Such a case happened next door to me less than two months ago when my neighbor had an electrical contractor come out and put a 125 volt, 20 amp receptacle in the garage, but they didn’t use any form of GFCI protection.

 

[kwired]

If someone comes into a home in Texas and does shoddy work, you report them to the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation. And from what I have seen over the years, plenty of licensed contractors have done some shoddy work. Such a case happened next door to me less than two months ago when my neighbor had an electrical contractor come out and put a 125 volt, 20 amp receptacle in the garage, but they didn’t use any form of GFCI protection.

Define "shoddy". Might have been a very good install other than not having GFCI protection. Not having protection may have been intentional or may have been a mistake. Was a permit and inspection required for performing this sort of job? Good or bad this is the kind of job that doesn't get permit quite often even if required I would imagine.

 

[SceneryDriver]

Same here, and honestly if you know what you are doing it can be better then the pros not only by the effort put into it but knowing where to apply and design for your needs.

Exactly. I'm not a licensed electrician. I'm an industrial controls designer who happens to design and build things for the Lighting and Entertainment industry. In fact, there really is no "license" for the work I do.

That said, I daresay I would put my panel and conduit work up against any licensed individual. I design and build my panels to meet/exceed UL508A even if we can't sticker them due to byzantine UL listing requirements, and my installs meet or exceed NEC requirements.

Licensing SHOULD prove that a person has the skills and knowledge to perform a task that, if improperly done, could constitute a hazard to others. In reality, holding a license does not teach or enforce pride in workmanship and attention to detail - that responsibility falls to the individual, and how they were trained.

Limiting sale of electrical materials to only licensed professionals is unnecessarily restrictive, and would probably do little to curb hack work. Hacks are gonna hack, regardless...


SceneryDriver

 

[growler]

Exactly. I'm not a licensed electrician. I'm an industrial controls designer who happens to design and build things for the Lighting and Entertainment industry. In fact, there really is no "license" for the work I do.

That said, I daresay I would put my panel and conduit work up against any licensed individual. I design and build my panels to meet/exceed UL508A even if we can't sticker them due to byzantine UL listing requirements, and my installs meet or exceed NEC requirements.

I understand that no license is required to design and build controls equipment.

Are you sure that no license is required to install this equipment?

 

[kwired]

I understand that no license is required to design and build controls equipment.

Are you sure that no license is required to install this equipment?

For a stage set that is not permanent - maybe not. Permanent wiring that remains in the venue after a production is done, usually would require licensing and permits most places.

 

[blkmagik21]

I went to HD website and searched for air conditioners, narrowed the results down to whole house air conditioners and came up with 45 hits for mostly split system units. Some of them were direct purchase with a price, others were get a quote with in home consultation. Pretty sure I can buy one.

Sales of older refrigerants is restricted, not just by the supply house but by law, not so much to homeowners, just to those that are licensed to handle it, anyone can get that certification AFAIK, but unless you plan to do it regularly probably not worth it.

Sure limiting electrical equipment sales would be somewhat a boost to electrical professionals, but IMO is still unconstitutional. With that kind of approach, nobody should do anything they are not trained to do. Can't even clean your own house with that approach, unless that is what you do for a living.

I do a lot of things in my own place including construction, plumbing, HVAC as well a auto and other machinery repairs. On a professional level I may do a little of all of those things at times, but usually try to limit them to how it may relate to my electrical work. If a framer is already on a job, I likely get them to frame something for me, if not a framer on the job, simple 4 hour job can take days just to wait for a framer to show up, let alone the cost it will add for such a simple project in most cases.

I’m not saying people should t be allowed to do anything on their own but you don’t have to be a certified mechanic to legally work on cars for people. You don’t have to be a certified framer to build a shed. You don’t have to be a certified HVAC installer to install duct work (only the refrigerant because of EPA regulations) you don’t have to be certified in Sheetrock, insulation, cabinetry, landscaping etc. the list goes on but in many many states you have to be a licensed and certified plumber to do plumbing and electrician to do electrical work. There are small loop holes for doing your own work but not for a basic handyman to do it. So limiting the amount of product in the plumbing and electrical category one can buy I don’t feel is unconstitutional. I think if all they did was to require an electricians license to buy any electrical panel or at least any over 4 spaces. That would save many house fires and many electrical shock deaths.

If a customer buys a main panel from a supplier they should be required to give their License so it can be referenced and made sure they haven’t bought a lot of them. Also it can be documented with the state so the state can show up for a compliance trip to make sure they got a permit for the work. If a homeowner gets a permit and it gets inspected a lot of the dangers will have to be removed to pass inspection. I know an inspector cannot see every wire in an installation because they don’t have time to tear apart each box. But I also do know that the electrical inspectors do take more time to inspect closely a house wired by a HO.


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[blkmagik21]

I'm an EC. I'm not sure what HD's are like in Canada. Where I live, they are fully stocked with what I need to do electrical work. I do jobs in a 30 mile radius from my house and there is a HD not more than 15 minutes drive from any location. I buy 99% of my materials there and the other 1% at supply houses. Supply houses are more expensive (sometimes by double), and less convenient. Oh and I see lots of other EC's and their employee's shopping there too.

Home Depot doesn’t have the selection that the supply houses do and they rake you over the coals for wire other than 14-2 and 12-2. But most everything else is cheaper there.


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[blkmagik21]

Now, THAT idea has a lot of merit. We aren't commuting. We are WORKING.

Sometimes it’s worth having an apprentice just to be able to use those lanes lol


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[kwired]

I’m not saying people should t be allowed to do anything on their own but you don’t have to be a certified mechanic to legally work on cars for people. You don’t have to be a certified framer to build a shed. You don’t have to be a certified HVAC installer to install duct work (only the refrigerant because of EPA regulations) you don’t have to be certified in Sheetrock, insulation, cabinetry, landscaping etc. the list goes on but in many many states you have to be a licensed and certified plumber to do plumbing and electrician to do electrical work. There are small loop holes for doing your own work but not for a basic handyman to do it. So limiting the amount of product in the plumbing and electrical category one can buy I don’t feel is unconstitutional. I think if all they did was to require an electricians license to buy any electrical panel or at least any over 4 spaces. That would save many house fires and many electrical shock deaths.

If a customer buys a main panel from a supplier they should be required to give their License so it can be referenced and made sure they haven’t bought a lot of them. Also it can be documented with the state so the state can show up for a compliance trip to make sure they got a permit for the work. If a homeowner gets a permit and it gets inspected a lot of the dangers will have to be removed to pass inspection. I know an inspector cannot see every wire in an installation because they don’t have time to tear apart each box. But I also do know that the electrical inspectors do take more time to inspect closely a house wired by a HO.


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So you think it is fine for people to be driving around on public roadways with brakes installed/repaired by non qualified but not ok for them to install wiring in buildings whether it be for their own building or not?

If it is deemed the refrigerant is harmful, then I can understand limiting sales of refrigerant, but remember we buy consumer appliances, vehicles, etc. that have such refrigerants in them anyway. Well we don't buy new products anymore with R12 or R22 but I think I made my point.

We have to remember codes are mostly there for the insurance industry. Even if not directly they are somewhat a driving force. Communities adopt codes so that if owners comply with them it will help lower premiums, well it once was for that kind of reason, may have evolved to a cash cow for the AHJ's more so than a true public interest thing. Liability still points fingers at the installer first when something bad happens even if it passed an inspection.