Emergency Disconnects Again

[LarryFine]

You could land GEC's in the emergency disconnect even if the service disconnect were further downstream.

I was just asking whether, if the outside disco is not the main disco, the inside disco rules still apply?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

We would have the option of landing electrode conductors there, wouldn't we?

It would sure make at least the outside ones easier.

The "nearest point of entrance" requirements still apply inside, though, correct?

You can land grounding electrode conductors at any point within the service disconnect enclosure or any point on the line side of the service disconnect.
The "nearest the point of entrance" still applies if the service disconnect is inside, but I don't know why.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If you put in a generator, could you label an ATS an emergency disconnect, not service equipment, and keep the inside panel the main?

If the transfer switch is marked "suitable for use as service equipment" you could. However one major manufacture has a published statement that you cannot do that with their equipment.

 

[electrical_gal_in_ga]

If you put in a generator, could you label an ATS an emergency disconnect, not service equipment, and keep the inside panel the main?

I have the same question and notice it was not answered in this thread. We install service entrance rated transfer switches which come bonded with a bonding jumper wire and contain an OCPD. In our area most of the (existing) homes have a meter outside and main breaker panel (or 2) located inside, sometimes upstairs in a central laundry room and the SEU cable feeding it is nearly impossible to replace. From what I read they can both remain bonded and nothing has to be changed as long as we put a sticker on the outdoor ats calling it an emergency disconnect, not service disconnect. Is this correct? Or more importantly, safe?

 

[infinity]

I have the same question and notice it was not answered in this thread. We install service entrance rated transfer switches which are factory bonded and contain an OCPD. In our area most of the (existing) homes have a meter outside and main breaker panel (or 2) located inside, sometimes upstairs in a central laundry room and the SEU cable feeding it is nearly impossible to replace. From what I read they can both remain bonded and nothing has to be changed as long as we put a sticker on the outdoor ats calling it an emergency disconnect, not service disconnect. Is this correct? Or more importantly, safe?

Does a transfer switch comply with the wording in (3)?

230.85(3) Other listed disconnect switches or circuit breakers on the supply side of each service disconnect that are suitable for use as service equipment and marked as follows:
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT,
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
Markings shall comply with 110.21(B).

 

[Ken_S]

I disagree with the idea that an exterior main breaker panel could be used as the emergency disconnect and not be also considered the service disconnect, because if any breaker were installed in that exterior panel it would be a service disconnect. Which would be in violation of 230.71(B).

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I disagree with the idea that an exterior main breaker panel could be used as the emergency disconnect and not be also considered the service disconnect, because if any breaker were installed in that exterior panel it would be a service disconnect. Which would be in violation of 230.71(B).

The code intentionally permits the installer to identify the outside emergency disconnect as "not service equipment'.

 

[jaggedben]

I disagree with the idea that an exterior main breaker panel could be used as the emergency disconnect and not be also considered the service disconnect, because if any breaker were installed in that exterior panel it would be a service disconnect. Which would be in violation of 230.71(B).

While many of us have found 230.85 to be a bit silly, it says exactly that you can do this. That's the main point of that section.

 

[jaggedben]

See also 230.82(10).

 

[infinity]

I disagree with the idea that an exterior main breaker panel could be used as the emergency disconnect and not be also considered the service disconnect, because if any breaker were installed in that exterior panel it would be a service disconnect. Which would be in violation of 230.71(B).

That is incorrect. A circuit breaker can wired so that it is the emergency disconnect and not the service disconnect which is clear outlined in 230.85(3).

 

[Ken_S]

That is incorrect. A circuit breaker can wired so that it is the emergency disconnect and not the service disconnect which is clear outlined in 230.85(3).

And I agree.

What I'm saying is, if you're going to use an exterior panel with a breaker as an emergency disconnect not service disconnecting means, how can you use the panel board section of that panel without violating 230.71?

 

[hbiss]

That is the very intent of the rules in 230.85. You could install an outside disconnect and mark it "emergency disconnect, not service disconnect" and use a 3 wire feed to the actual service disconnect.


Based on CMP 10 task group action on various proposals related to 230.85, this will go away in the 2026 code and the code will simply require that the service disconnect for one and two family dwellings be located outside in a readily accessible location on or within sight of the dwelling.

How about just requiring meter socket manufacturers to manufacturer products with a built-in disconnect and a handle on the side of the can?

That would be too simple for the NEC to think of...

-Hal

 

[don_resqcapt19]

How about just requiring meter socket manufacturers to manufacturer products with a built-in disconnect and a handle on the side of the can?

That would be too simple for the NEC to think of...

-Hal

You would also have to get all of the utilities onboard...our utilities are very specific as to what meter sockets that will permit. Along with their service installation manual, the also publish a list of meter sockets that they will accept. If you use one not on the list you will be replacing it before you get power.
However such a socket, if approved by your utility, would meet the proposed new NEC rule.

 

[jaggedben]

And I agree.

What I'm saying is, if you're going to use an exterior panel with a breaker as an emergency disconnect not service disconnecting means, how can you use the panel board section of that panel without violating 230.71?

I don't believe anyone has suggested using a panelboard. It would be only a breaker enclosure (in a meter combo or without), as seen in pictures upthread.

 

[tortuga]

I think Ken is asking about something like using a one of those combo meter over main lug only panel that takes up to 6 2-pole breakers. Calling the six breakers in the panelboard emergency disconnects then continuing back out of the panel with six 3-wire service laterals to say various out buildings.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I think Ken is asking about something like using a one of those combo meter over main lug only panel that takes up to 6 2-pole breakers. Calling the six breakers in the panelboard emergency disconnects then continuing back out of the panel with six 3-wire service laterals to say various out buildings.
View attachment 2572703

Those are no longer permitted to be used as service equipment. You can only have one service disconnect in an enclosure, starting with the 2020 code, the same code that first required emergency disconnects.

 

[infinity]

And I agree.

What I'm saying is, if you're going to use an exterior panel with a breaker as an emergency disconnect not service disconnecting means, how can you use the panel board section of that panel without violating 230.71?

Sorry you did say panel. I agree that a panel on the outside adjacent to the meter would be both the EM disco and the service disconnect.

 

[tortuga]

You can only have one service disconnect in an enclosure

In this scenario it would be 6 emergency disconnects, the service disconnects would be elsewhere down stream per say.

 

[kwired]

You could land GEC's in the emergency disconnect even if the service disconnect were further downstream.

I agree, it can land anywhere from service disconnect all the way to where service drop or lateral ends, and other than when some local rules apply, this includes inside meter sockets.

 

[kwired]

We haven't adopted the 2020 code for residential yet but I would just install a feed thru main breaker panel on the outside. These panels have a few breaker spaces also.

Doubt that is acceptable if there is other breakers installed, presuming you talking about one those with feed thru lugs as well as spaces for other circuit breakers. If you have other circuits involved you essentially made that outside main the service disconnect and the feed through circuit would be a feeder and not service conductors.

I was just asking whether, if the outside disco is not the main disco, the inside disco rules still apply?

The outside disconnect is intended to be the "emergency disconnect". It doesn't even have to have overcurrent protection incorporated in it, however a circuit breaker is allowed to be used for the emergency disconnect.

If you have your service disconnect on outside then you don't need an additional emergency disconnect, one switch can serve both purposes, apply both "emergency disconnect" and "service disconnect" labels to it.