ethical/legal situation

[mivey]

All i am saying is do what your being hired to do. They want to know where the power is coming from. Trace it to source of power and what meter. It is not your job to find out who writes the check for this meter. Now if its very clear that the power is being stolen then your in a tuff spot. I would not hook it up knowing it is theft. Be careful about reporting it as this could cost you a customer. For all you know that meter might be paid for by them as well so really no theft involved

True, you might never know. But if you do know, then report it, then lose the customer, I would consider that a win in my book. If you sleep with dogs you get fleas.

I have found common loads behind customer meters before. It usually is a stupidity thing on the part of some wannabe electrician. I am wise enough to ask the right questions to find out how things work. Busy-body? Maybe, but I want to do the right thing.

I have never had the owner/manager try to hide it but they were always willing to get the problem fixed. Had they not been willing to fix the problem, and asked me to cover it up, I would have let them know I would not participate and that they needed to step up. I would report it if there were no other way to get it resolved because it is the right thing to do. Just the way I am.

 

[acrwc10]

You could always offer a double meter for that service. It would pay for itself pretty quick. There is no load increase involved so it would be simple.

 

[hurk27]

I guess their are not many in here that work in RV parks:

The reason is RV parks are very rarely metered at each lot by the utility, and how could they be, could you imagine how hard it would be to get power turned on and off if you came into a park just for an overnight stay?

Most large RV parks will be primary metered or centrally metered by the utility, the park will own the electrical infrastructure after this point, including the sub meter pedestals at each lot, I have done some with remote metering/control and some they just have padlocks on the pedestal to control who hooks up, which they manually take the reading at the time of hook up.

The problem I have is in almost all cases they also own all their own water and sewer systems, this is why I said the OP was confusing because it said

Recently a contractor worked on their lift station

To me "their" meant the owners of the RV park, it also said he thought the lift station was wired to a

the power source comes from the disconnect for a park model home.

Which is saying this is an unoccupied "model park home" which the park most likely is paying for the electric. Also most of these pedestals have extra lugs ahead of the sub metering for things like park lights, street lights etc...
So as per the OP I don't see this as any electrical theft or anything wrong, as its done like this all the time.

I just though I would bring to light how most RV parks are done.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I guess their are not many in here that work in RV parks:

The reason is RV parks are very rarely metered at each lot by the utility, and how could they be, could you imagine how hard it would be to get power turned on and off if you came into a park just for an overnight stay?

Most large RV parks will be primary metered or centrally metered by the utility, the park will own the electrical infrastructure after this point, including the sub meter pedestals at each lot, I have done some with remote metering/control and some they just have padlocks on the pedestal to control who hooks up, which they manually take the reading at the time of hook up.

The problem I have is in almost all cases they also own all their own water and sewer systems, this is why I said the OP was confusing because it said
To me "their" meant the owners of the RV park, it also said he thought the lift station was wired to a
Which is saying this is an unoccupied "model park home" which the park most likely is paying for the electric.
So as per the OP I don't see this as any electrical theft or anything wrong, as its done like this all the time.

I just though I would bring to light how most RV parks are done.

In FL we have many snow birds that spend 3 months. The parks usually have sub metering so they can charge for the amount of use. As to PARK MODEL the term is used to describe the larger RV trailers that are not typically towed around for traveling.They are often setup and stay same as normal mobile homes.
Untill the OP gives his report on the who,what,where of this install we can't assume power is being stolen from the tenant of the park model. I have traveled many states and if my stay is less than a month usually the electric use is allowed for in the dailey rate. Stays for a month may or may not be metered.

 

[renosteinke]

I understand the OP's concerns, and also can see that some folks here don't really appreciate the joys of servicing an RV or Mobile Home park.

I think we need to consider the issues that arise - simply because they're sure to come up again and again.

I grouped RV's and mobile homes together for a reason. While entirely different rules apply to each of them, many parks contain a mix of the two. There's been a tremendous amount of code activity regarding mobile homes over the past decade, and I guarantee that those issues WILL come back and bite you.

As I try to stay closer to the OP's topic ....

The service and distribution in such parks is usually owned by the park, and the PoCo's interest stops at the main meter. Everything from the wires to the pedestals to the meters are owned by the park. Those meters are available for about $50; they're 'used' and not certified for utility use - but the park will still use them to bill the tenants.

Since the PoCo has no interest in anything that happens after their meter, the distribution network of RV parks is usually a nightmare. It's been modified, changed, added to, etc., countless times over the years, with little documentation. To make matters worse, today's RV isn't at all like the ones the park was designed for fifty years ago.

Most often, spaces are illegally added to the park over the years. I recall one park that was zoned for six RV's, that really had 18. That's the first problem.

Then, today's RV is larger, and has all the comforts of home ... air conditioning, power to a shed, a jacuzzi, etc. Since an RV pedestal typically assumes 30 amps of 120v, this can become an issue real fast.

It's an issue not just for the RV in question, but for the entire distribution system. Try telling the park operator that he needs to empty his park for a month, so you can dig up all the old feeders and run larger ones. Let me know how that turns out!

Returning to the OP, I think that the possibility of power theft is present. I believe he has a duty to determine whether this is the case, and inform the owner. Then the OP has a choice: he can fix it, or he can leave the job and report it to the various authorities- as well as to every involved party. That would include the presumed victim.

Since the OP says he's working for the park as an employee, this puts him in the position of wondering if his boss is a thief. That's not a nice position to be in- but the same options apply. It's just like the office clerk who learns the company is using bootleg software, or the shipping clerk who discovers that his boss is part of a hijacking operation, or the bookkeeper who learns the boss is keeping two sets of books.

Turnabout is fair play. I've had many employers who made it clear from the start that they planned to hold me to the highest ethical standards. I return the favor.

 

[growler]

I do all of the electrical work for an RV park in florida.
The question is... I am working for the park...

Since the OP says he's working for the park as an employee, this puts him in the position of wondering if his boss is a thief.

Is the OP working for the RV park as an employee? From the OP's profile I was thinking contract work and that would be the reason he may not know what's going on.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I understand the OP's concerns, and also can see that some folks here don't really appreciate the joys of servicing an RV or Mobile Home park.

I think we need to consider the issues that arise - simply because they're sure to come up again and again.

I grouped RV's and mobile homes together for a reason. While entirely different rules apply to each of them, many parks contain a mix of the two. There's been a tremendous amount of code activity regarding mobile homes over the past decade, and I guarantee that those issues WILL come back and bite you.

As I try to stay closer to the OP's topic ....

The service and distribution in such parks is usually owned by the park, and the PoCo's interest stops at the main meter. Everything from the wires to the pedestals to the meters are owned by the park. Those meters are available for about $50; they're 'used' and not certified for utility use - but the park will still use them to bill the tenants.

Since the PoCo has no interest in anything that happens after their meter, the distribution network of RV parks is usually a nightmare. It's been modified, changed, added to, etc., countless times over the years, with little documentation. To make matters worse, today's RV isn't at all like the ones the park was designed for fifty years ago.

Most often, spaces are illegally added to the park over the years. I recall one park that was zoned for six RV's, that really had 18. That's the first problem.

Then, today's RV is larger, and has all the comforts of home ... air conditioning, power to a shed, a jacuzzi, etc. Since an RV pedestal typically assumes 30 amps of 120v, this can become an issue real fast.

It's an issue not just for the RV in question, but for the entire distribution system. Try telling the park operator that he needs to empty his park for a month, so you can dig up all the old feeders and run larger ones. Let me know how that turns out!

Returning to the OP, I think that the possibility of power theft is present. I believe he has a duty to determine whether this is the case, and inform the owner. Then the OP has a choice: he can fix it, or he can leave the job and report it to the various authorities- as well as to every involved party. That would include the presumed victim.

Since the OP says he's working for the park as an employee, this puts him in the position of wondering if his boss is a thief. That's not a nice position to be in- but the same options apply. It's just like the office clerk who learns the company is using bootleg software, or the shipping clerk who discovers that his boss is part of a hijacking operation, or the bookkeeper who learns the boss is keeping two sets of books.

Turnabout is fair play. I've had many employers who made it clear from the start that they planned to hold me to the highest ethical standards. I return the favor.

As a sub contractor we must remember what we re licensed and insured to do. Cross that line and you just might find yourself in court. Be very careful about calling your customer a thief. What might look like power theft just might not be. Do not assume that just because power comes from a meter that looks like the wrong person pays the bill that it is true. Just might be that landlord or park manager pays that bill or has private deal worked out to adjust for use.

I once was assigned the job of fixing some lights on parking lot area property that had many office buildings. Was a very strange system and circuits came from several buildings. We never could find the feed for about 6 lights on posts. They were either on a timer or clock but never found. Fixed the lights as that was my job. They wanted to know where the feed came from but did not want me to spend several hours to track it down. Did spend a few hours and they were not from any of the circuits feeding others. I had suspicions they were tapped off anothers property. I was told to stop looking as the lights worked. Being i wanted to keep my job i did as told.

 

[pfalcon]

In my park we have several locations where power is supplying a home and commons. Since we pay the electric there is no issue. Approach one of my tenants with a story about how I might be stealing from him and we will have issues.

Most of my tenants are long term. Half my tenants do not own the home - I do. Those that don't own the home typically pay a flat rent that includes utilities. We use POCO metering at each location and are billed separately.

If you have a question about how I'm set up I'm usually more than happy to answer. Stir up something with my tenant and he might get uptight and move out even though everything is on the up and up. Tenants are frequently like small children and the topic is money. They spook easy. Cost me a tenant that way, I'm not gonna sue. But you can be sure you won't get any business from me in the future and I'll spread the word in the area.

 

[renosteinke]

Tom and Pfalcone ... strut and puff all you like, but it is the duty of a citizen to report suspected crimes to the police- and one has absolute immunity for a making a good-faith complaint. Indeed, if someone acts against you for making a complaint, they are the ones at risk of a lawsuit - not you.

Otherwise, theft is theft - ever hear of a citizens' arrest? Your 'issues' might lead to posting bail.

If someone thinks a crime is being committed, they should never fear reporting their suspicions to the police. Not should an honest party resent the inquiry that will follow.

 

[nhfire77]

Tom and Pfalcone ... strut and puff all you like, but it is the duty of a citizen to report suspected crimes to the police- and one has absolute immunity for a making a good-faith complaint. Indeed, if someone acts against you for making a complaint, they are the ones at risk of a lawsuit - not you.

Otherwise, theft is theft - ever hear of a citizens' arrest? Your 'issues' might lead to posting bail.

If someone thinks a crime is being committed, they should never fear reporting their suspicions to the police. Not should an honest party resent the inquiry that will follow.

Not a lawyer, not legal advice, but generally a citizens arrest is made with a person actually witnesses a felony...so, did you see them hooking up the lift station? Of course not.

"If someone thinks a crime is being committed, they should never fear reporting their suspicions to the police."

You never lived in the dangerous part of town did you?

IMO you don't have the obligation to rat someone out, you can, but you shouldn't have to.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

You can report suspected theft but be ready for what might come back at you. Do it to the wrong person and result could be deadly. This is a good way to end up in court, lose a job, etc.
Not saying i am for a thief but before you point fingers you best be 100% sure.
How would you react if someone made a report on you as a thief ? Even if the outcome here is power is being stolen we need proof that it was intentional.
Sometimes its best to be SCHULTZ
Do you risk your family by turning in drug dealers ? Yes you should but is it worth it.

 

[Belton]

First question I would ask (myself and them)is why do they want to know "where" the station is being fed from? They have posed this question to you for a reason. I assume it was working fine, customers don't call if all is well. Find that reason and I bet the question of "theft" will be answerred - one way or the other.
I don't know much about RV parks but I would look and see how the power is arranged. Where is the POCO meter? How many are there? How many spaces?... you get the picture.

My first impression is they would not be stealing because it would not be worth it. Then again, they might have called you because they suspect the original guy might have screwed it up and put them in a bad situation. Unless I am absolutely 100% convinced I would not say a word. If I were convinced, I would carefully choose my words and the company I express them in. You're not guilty of anything, but I am sure you want to do the right thing.

 

[petersonra]

interesting take on the word "unethical". If you witness a crime and the perpetrator pays you to keep your mouth shut, you are called an accomplice and are subject to prosecution.

In the situation the OP presented there is no way short of a confession that the electrician can know what the actual situation is. How would he have any knowledge that a crime of some sort was being committed?

Just guessing, or thinking that a crime was being committed is not the answer. Feel free to accuse someone of criminal activity based on supposition and guesswork and see where that gets you.

In any case, even if the electricity is being taken from a panel paid for by someone else without his knowledge, is that an actual crime? It might be considered civil conversion. Are you enough of a lawyer to know the difference?

 

[acrwc10]

Terribly sorry if my comment on your statement offends you.

And doing so might well be unethical. When you takes the man's money, you owe your allegience to him.

I Only commented on your statement as I feel it is absurd. Going around making allegations would be foolish, it would take one look at the meter here to know who owns it, our POCO has their name theirs, sub meters don't. As far as me "owing my allegiance" to anyone, Money doesn't buy my allegiance. Can you say as much ? Wait you already answered that question. :roll:

 

[renosteinke]

It's not your job to pass judgement or to prove a case .... all you (as a citizen) have is an obligation to report your suspicions to the authorities and let 'the system' determine the facts.

If they believe there is no crime, or the matter is a civil one, they will say so- but that's for THEM to determine.

Fear of reprisals? The honest man should never fear an honest inquiry. Otherwise, there's a reason we let courts and juries and investigators sort things out. For those who don't wish to accept the rule of law .... everyone else has the Second ammendment.

Druggies, etc? If you're going to worry abour some piss-ant property manager, it's only a matter of time before you are governed / enslaved by thugs. Why do you suppose you never hear of a police station being robbed? Because they shoot back, that's why.

Does a man sometimes have to risk a loss in order to do what's right? Of course- that's what makes him a man.

 

[petersonra]

Terribly sorry if my comment on your statement offends you.

I Only commented on your statement as I feel it is absurd. Going around making allegations would be foolish, it would take one look at the meter here to know who owns it, our POCO has their name theirs, sub meters don't. As far as me "owing my allegiance" to anyone, Money doesn't buy my allegiance. Can you say as much ? Wait you already answered that question. :roll:

I can say with absolute certainty that short of some kind of criminal activity or other serious issue, when I do work for someone, I do indeed work for and not against their interests. Maybe you feel it is a good idea to work against the interests of your customers. I don't.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Terribly sorry if my comment on your statement offends you.

I Only commented on your statement as I feel it is absurd. Going around making allegations would be foolish, it would take one look at the meter here to know who owns it, our POCO has their name theirs, sub meters don't. As far as me "owing my allegiance" to anyone, Money doesn't buy my allegiance. Can you say as much ? Wait you already answered that question. :roll:

Might point out that power theft is not always from the POCO or even from one of the meters that a POCO customer is paying for. Sub meters will usually be billed to others and are just as easy to steal power from.
Bottom line here is we are electricians not law officers. Unless you know for a fact that power theft is involved your best off to mind your own business. Your seting yourself up for major problems if your wrong. Also note that complaints are often public records when involved with government. If you worked for me and got involved in something other than what i directed you to do you just might be looking for a job. Do what your hired to do and nothing more unless what you see will result in an electrical hazard and then report that to the person signing your pay check.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

"Does a man sometimes have to risk a loss in order to do what's right? Of course- that's what makes him a man. "
That is a very bold statement, only problem is the loss you are talking about just might be the lives of your family. Turn in drug dealers and you will learn fast. Why do you think so many drug dealers stay in business ? You are right and just might be DEAD right.

 

[mivey]

Turnabout is fair play. I've had many employers who made it clear from the start that they planned to hold me to the highest ethical standards. I return the favor.

I often find they use a lot of grey paint.

 

[mivey]

Approach one of my tenants with a story about how I might be stealing from him and we will have issues.

There is a right way and a wrong way for every situation. I'm not condoning being a pain. We can't possibly paint every scenario here. Everyone should follow the standard they carry within themselves. Each situation will require wisdom and I would hope we all have a good dose of it.

You can report suspected theft but be ready for what might come back at you. Do it to the wrong person and result could be deadly.

I would hope none of us would act foolishly, even with the best of intentions.