EV Charger question

[wwhitney]

You know, it would be nice if this forum could have discussions of the electrical aspects of EVSE installations without the introduction of anti-EV FUD.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tthh]

I started out after college working at one of the major oil companies. I've been on a ship in the Gulf of Mexico and out to oil fields. Frankly, the environmental arguments against lithium and other mining are crazy when you see what oil an gas operations do worldwide.

Next, even with the lack of current infrastructure for an all-electric world, oil and gas are a finite commodity and it is getting more and more expensive and environmentally risky to get at what's left. This is not going to change.

So, given that, the only way forward is electricy. Yes, a lot has to change and be upgraded and there will be false starts and other problems, like battery fires. But, there is no other way forward --- none.

 

[ggunn]

This may be using some of the same references, but is a good read...

You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars

Sorry, that meme you just retweeted isn't correct.

www.motortrend.com

Language that will cause me to immediately leave a web page or trash an email: "what they don't want you to know", "you are being lied to", "what most people do not understand", etc. I have cultivated a resistance to what I call "the lure of special knowledge". It could be that I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater by taking that position, but there is so much bathwater and so little baby out there that I am not all that concerned.

 

[brantmacga]

I don't do a lot of EV chargers installs
I am helping my brother in-law install a charger for his new Ford Lightning. SHM. I am only helping because he is family and I really don’t have time for this, one of those annoying situations that's not paid. The charger is the: Ford Charge Station Pro - 80 AMP WALL BOX

1. Is an 80A breaker good? Or should it be sized at 125% for continuous duty?.
2. He has Siemens type QAF2. Do these breakers have adjustment on them?
3. Would you install GFCI if it were in your garage? Is that to Taboo for this site?
4. Spec calls for #3 CU. Its going in FNMC, 1” so I will be using THHN. #4 THHN seems fine to me based on code

Before you report me for a DYI look at my history. This just isn't in my wheel house.
Thanks in advance for reading and any reply's given

I installed one of these recently for my brother's Lightning. You need to use #3 w/ a 100A circuit breaker. I used 1" LFMC as it was mounted directly next to the meter main. You don't need a GFCI when hard-wiring it. Code requires a GFCI if it's cord & plug; I can tell you the 50A Ford charger that comes w/ the Mach-E will trip a GFCI breaker every time. There is another member of this forum that specializes in EV chargers and they've told me they will all cause a GFCI to trip at some point.

In the upper left corner of the circuit board on the Ford Pro charger, there is a rotary switch that must be set the correct position for 80A. The instruction book will tell you which number to set it at.

 

[retirede]

I can tell you the 50A Ford charger that comes w/ the Mach-E will trip a GFCI breaker every time.

Mine doesn’t.
And it’s actually a 32A EVSE even though it comes with a 14-50P.

 

[wwhitney]

You need to use #3 w/ a 100A circuit breaker. I used 1" LFMC

Presumably LFMC marked 80C dry or 105C dry, rather than the unmarked kind or the marked 60C dry.

Or as a practical matter, is basically all the commercially available listed LFMC in fact listed to at least 80C dry? Like basically all the THHN wire is also listed at least THWN, usually THWN-2.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[retirede]

Mine doesn’t.
And it’s actually a 32A EVSE even though it comes with a 14-50P.

Here are the instructions. “50A - GFCI recommended.”

 

[brantmacga]

Mine doesn’t.
And it’s actually a 32A EVSE even though it comes with a 14-50P.

I've installed three, and they all trip a GFCI; you are in the minority it seems. If you search this issue out on the web, you will find page after page of the same complaint. What brand CB do you have?

https://www.ford.com/ntzlibs/content/dam/bev/us/september-2020-updates/install-specs-sheet/Home_Install_Spec_Sheet_0831_FINAL.pdf

Its also interesting in the Ford literature, for the hardwired charge station, it states "60A (Do NOT use GFCI breaker since internal GFCI is included and false tripping will occur)". I was pretty sure I'd read somewhere that all of them have internal GFCI protection.

 

[jaggedben]

Language that will cause me to immediately leave a web page or trash an email: "what they don't want you to know", "you are being lied to", "what most people do not understand", etc. I have cultivated a resistance to what I call "the lure of special knowledge". It could be that I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater by taking that position, but there is so much bathwater and so little baby out there that I am not all that concerned.

Two thumbs up.
In the case of the article in question when I saw it somewhere else a few weeks ago, I almost didn't read it for the same reasons. Gave it a shot and found it to be legit. I decided they headlined it that way precisely to draw in folks who do not have your kind of filter, including folks looking for confirmation of their existing anti-EV bias. It's a strange world we live in.

 

[jaggedben]

You know, it would be nice if this forum could have discussions of the electrical aspects of EVSE installations without the introduction of anti-EV FUD.

Cheers, Wayne

I almost said something like this earlier. Perhaps the moderators should step in and delete posts (not threads) that stray off topic and say if you want that discussion take it to Campfire Chat. It's not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. And members with questions about their work installing EV circuits don't need it.

 

[hillbilly1]

I installed one of these recently for my brother's Lightning. You need to use #3 w/ a 100A circuit breaker. I used 1" LFMC as it was mounted directly next to the meter main. You don't need a GFCI when hard-wiring it. Code requires a GFCI if it's cord & plug; I can tell you the 50A Ford charger that comes w/ the Mach-E will trip a GFCI breaker every time. There is another member of this forum that specializes in EV chargers and they've told me they will all cause a GFCI to trip at some point.

In the upper left corner of the circuit board on the Ford Pro charger, there is a rotary switch that must be set the correct position for 80A. The instruction book will tell you which number to set it at.

I’m betting the internal self test feature that is required for all chargers, probably does an actual fault test, and that’s why external gfci trips.

 

[Ragin Cajun]

Guess you don't need to do the install since Ford has stopped shipping the EV "trucks" because of battery "issues".

 

[jim dungar]

I almost said something like this earlier. Perhaps the moderators should step in and delete posts (not threads) that stray off topic and say if you want that discussion take it to Campfire Chat. It's not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. And members with questions about their work installing EV circuits don't need it.

Do you use the "Report" option on the bottom of post's screen?
This alerts moderators to a situation that might need their attention.

 

[retirede]

I've installed three, and they all trip a GFCI; you are in the minority it seems. If you search this issue out on the web, you will find page after page of the same complaint. What brand CB do you have?

https://www.ford.com/ntzlibs/content/dam/bev/us/september-2020-updates/install-specs-sheet/Home_Install_Spec_Sheet_0831_FINAL.pdf

Its also interesting in the Ford literature, for the hardwired charge station, it states "60A (Do NOT use GFCI breaker since internal GFCI is included and false tripping will occur)". I was pretty sure I'd read somewhere that all of them have internal GFCI protection.

The UL standard for EVSEs requires them all to have internal GFCI.
I used mined successfully on a SQ-D QO. But I don’t use mine very often - I have the hard-wired unit permanently installed in my garage, no GFCI breaker since it’s not required.

Having said all that, there’s no technical reason that cascaded GFCIs should be a problem. If it was a problem, you couldn’t use a hair dryer in a bathroom since they all have a GFCI in the plug.

 

[hillbilly1]

The UL standard for EVSEs requires them all to have internal GFCI.
I used mined successfully on a SQ-D QO. But I don’t use mine very often - I have the hard-wired unit permanently installed in my garage, no GFCI breaker since it’s not required.

Having said all that, there’s no technical reason that cascaded GFCIs should be a problem. If it was a problem, you couldn’t use a hair dryer in a bathroom since they all have a GFCI in the plug.

If the auto test on startup actually uses fault current to ground, it may trip an upstream gfci. It would all be dependent upon how the manufacturer achieves this, so that may be why some don’t play well, while others don’t have a problem. It’s not the number of GFCI’s in a circuit, it’s how the test is performed.

 

[SSDriver]

You know, it would be nice if this forum could have discussions of the electrical aspects of EVSE installations without the introduction of anti-EV FUD.

Cheers, Wayne

So you want a one sided discussion.

My first post was sound advise and I stated if he wanted "green" energy he would have to pay for it. OP was trying to cut corners on wire size. You jumped in to debate me.

 

[wwhitney]

So you want a one sided discussion.

My first post was sound advise and I stated if he wanted "green" energy he would have to pay for it. OP was trying to cut corners on wire size. You jumped in to debate me.

I think I've shown quite a willingness to discuss the details of why an F-150 Lightning is greener than a gasoline F-150. It's been interesting, and a good exercise to look under the hood a little rather than just accept the established wisdom, but so far everything supports the established wisdom.

So next time, please omit the "doubt quotes" and especially the derision from your otherwise sound advice, and then we won't have to rehash all of this again. How does that sound?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[FionaZuppa]

Why would that be? For a given set of driving habits (acceleration, braking, no peeling out. etc.) why would EVs be harder on tires than ICE vehicles?

Sorry my bad, this went way off topic.
The new tire class HL, it's almost like the existing LT class.
As mentioned by others, heavier eV vehicle and the ability to apply lots of torque very fast, is why eV tires are "special".
Heavier eV's also means vehicle accidents carry lots more energy into the crash.

Do Electric Vehicles Need Special Tires? - Consumer Reports

One of the questions that is commonly asked when it comes time to replace tires on an EV is whether electric vehicles need different tires than gas-powered cars. Consumer Reports has the answer.

www.consumerreports.org

 

[LarryFine]

So, given that, the only way forward is electricy. Yes, a lot has to change and be upgraded and there will be false starts and other problems, like battery fires. But, there is no other way forward --- none.

But will we be able to generate it cleanly and perpetually, and have a practicable widespread charging infrastructure?

Maybe a better solution would be to generate the electricity within the vehicle, perhaps with a miniature nuclear reactor.

 

[tthh]

But will we be able to generate it cleanly and perpetually, and have a practicable widespread charging infrastructure?

Maybe a better solution would be to generate the electricity within the vehicle, perhaps with a miniature nuclear reactor.

I think yes, we can generate it cleanly and perpetually. It has to be yes.

We've seen the risks with nuclear fusion and new fusion reactors do not make sense.

If ever nuclear fusion reactors come to pass, then that powers the planet forever. This is the big win if it every becomes reality.

In the meantime, it will be a number of distributed things...

Wind and solar need to get bigger. I've been in a lot of places that have wind every day, all day and are out of the way: Wyoming, Colorado, West Virginia, Kansas...I'm sure just about every state has wind corridors. Just keep putting them up. Then solar...I used to live in VA and solar may not be all that great in places that have a lot of cloudy days, but the sun comes up every day. I live in Colorado now and just about every house in Colorado could have solar that powers the whole house, and charge the car, every day, and with battery, the night and the random cloudy day. There are many places like this.

If that needs to be infilled by traditional power plants, that's fine, but they need to become the minority.

BTW, here are some figures on states getting a lot from wind now: Colorado 26%, Iowa 55%, Kansas 45%, Maine 23%, Minnesota 21%, Nebraska 25%, New Mexico 30%, North Dakota 34%, Oklahoma 41%, South Dakota 52%, Texas 20%, Wyoming 19%.