Failed inspections

[ivsenroute]

There seems to be a lot of complaining about inspectors and their lack of code knowledge. This is a common a problem for electricians as it is inspectors. Here are a few failed inspection finds that one would think would be common knowledge for a professional electrician:

* Bond clamp and wire connected to the plastic well pipe.
* Forgot to run any wire or boxes for smoke detectors.
* NM inside conduit outside.
* UF to exterior hot tub/pool.
* No main panel bond screw
* Panel bond screw loose with paper still on it
* 500 kcmil aluminum for a 400A service
* 200A total meter base for a 400A service
* Connecting one of the phases to the neutral bar in the meter base
* Only 1 circuit to kitchen counters
* Running a new 15A circuit to the bathroom receptacle
* Installing 8/3 on a 50A circuit
* Forgetting to connect the ground ring on a 12,400volt transformer
* Drilling every single hole within 1-1/4" of the edge of studs with no protector plates.
* Running 12/2 to and between every smoke detector that is suppose to be interconnected.
* Installing receptacles above electric baseboard heat
* Installing baseboard heat below receptacles.
* Forgetting to install a disconnect for a hot tub
* Installing the receptacle for an above ground pool 24" away from the pool.
* Forgetting to install a light in the attic space when required
* Installing a brand new IT area for a large business and completely forgetting the disco requirements of 645.10
* Penetrating a true "firewall" more than 36" above the finished floor
* Installing non-IC cans where they are in contact with insulation
* Failure to install receptacles within 25' of HVAC equip outdoors
* Failure to bond CSST and/or other gas pipe properly
* Stubbing up into the fire pump room with sched 40 pvc
* Not bonding the rebar for the concrete around inground pool.
* Failure to wire luminairs IAW the IECC when it applies
* Lack of seals in conduit when required for fuel dispensing stations.
* Ground rods 3' apart.
* Mounting condensing fan disco's behind the units with no working space
* Not following the approved, stamped plans in commercial work.

Don't call me for a rough wiring inspection and not have the grounds tied together and bonded to the enclosure then complain that you have to have all of the devices pulled out of the walls for me to see inside the boxes since you did not have them connected the first time.

Don't ever ask me "What do you want?" it is not what I or any other inspector wants. What is required is something you should already know.

Do call me to ask me for a clarification on an issue.

Do not call me to ask me 10 questions about the installation you are about to do and take up 30 minutes of my time on the phone. I don't design it for you, I verify what you did was code compliant and per the approved prints for commercial jobs.

Don't get PO'd at me because I won't sign off on an inspection because you are not done but tell me you will have it done by the end of the day. When you are done, I can check your work. If you are not done, cancel the inspection and reschedule.

 

[jaylectricity]

Tsk Tsk...where are the correlating codes?

 

[iwire]

ivsenroute, I have no problem if you want to do this, but I hope you're skin is thick as this list is bound to receive a good deal of criticism. If you are OK with that great, if not send me a PM and I can remove this thread.

Just for instance....

* 500 kcmil aluminum for a 400A service

That can be NEC compliant.

* 200A total meter base for a 400A service

That could also be compliant.

* Forgetting to connect the ground ring on a 12,400volt transformer

Sounds like a power company issue.

* Installing a brand new IT area for a large business and completely forgetting the disco requirements of 645.10

It is generally not required, usually a voluntary section.

Don't ever ask me "What do you want?" it is not what I or any other inspector wants. What is required is something you should already know.

Yeah I wish that where true but in my 25 years I have found that to be more of a fantasy than a reality. Each inspector is a different person and has different views of what is required by the NEC and what is not. ...... Much like ECs.

Do not call me to ask me 10 questions about the installation you are about to do and take up 30 minutes of my time on the phone.

Thanks for the help, :roll: I see how that is much worse then me having to wait hours on the job for the inspector to show up.:roll:

 

[nakulak]

* Penetrating a true "firewall" more than 36" above the finished floor

ok, you lost me on this one ?

* 500 kcmil aluminum for a 400A service

as Bob indicated, isn't the conductor size based on the load calc, not the nominal service size ?

* Not following the approved, stamped plans in commercial work.

I have an issue with this. If its NEC compliant, why do I have to follow the funny papers ? ( I know that different jurisdictions treat this differently, but could you explain your reasoning ? I understand that the ahj does not want to take the responsibility of checking engineering calculations already done and stamped by a PE, but a lot of issues that come up under this heading do not involve complex calculations and are simply NEC guidelines which may exceed the NEC and not even desired by the owner for cost savings purposes)


BTW, even tho Bob didn't think so, IMO this is a good post.

 

[Cavie]

Penetrating a true Firewall more that 36" off the finished floor?? What's that?

 

[iwire]

BTW, even tho Bob didn't think so, IMO this is a good post.

I did not say that at all, I just do not want a regular contributer like ivsenroute get upset if people have an issue with some of his views.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I did not say that at all, I just do not want a regular contributer like ivsenroute get upset if people have an issue with some of his views.

I have known Bob on this site since 2003, I say that he is not only being a good moderator, because this thread is a ticking time bomb, but he is geniunely looking out for member who has been around for a long time. Although I am also sure his courtesy would extend to any member.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

There seems to be a lot of complaining about inspectors and their lack of code knowledge. This is a common a problem for electricians as it is inspectors. Here are a few failed inspection finds that one would think would be common knowledge for a professional electrician:

* Bond clamp and wire connected to the plastic well pipe.
* Forgot to run any wire or boxes for smoke detectors.
* NM inside conduit outside.
* UF to exterior hot tub/pool.
* No main panel bond screw
* Panel bond screw loose with paper still on it
* 500 kcmil aluminum for a 400A service
* 200A total meter base for a 400A service
* Connecting one of the phases to the neutral bar in the meter base
* Only 1 circuit to kitchen counters
* Running a new 15A circuit to the bathroom receptacle
* Installing 8/3 on a 50A circuit
* Forgetting to connect the ground ring on a 12,400volt transformer
* Drilling every single hole within 1-1/4" of the edge of studs with no protector plates.
* Running 12/2 to and between every smoke detector that is suppose to be interconnected.
* Installing receptacles above electric baseboard heat
* Installing baseboard heat below receptacles.
* Forgetting to install a disconnect for a hot tub
* Installing the receptacle for an above ground pool 24" away from the pool.
* Forgetting to install a light in the attic space when required
* Installing a brand new IT area for a large business and completely forgetting the disco requirements of 645.10
* Penetrating a true "firewall" more than 36" above the finished floor
* Installing non-IC cans where they are in contact with insulation
* Failure to install receptacles within 25' of HVAC equip outdoors
* Failure to bond CSST and/or other gas pipe properly
* Stubbing up into the fire pump room with sched 40 pvc
* Not bonding the rebar for the concrete around inground pool.
* Failure to wire luminairs IAW the IECC when it applies
* Lack of seals in conduit when required for fuel dispensing stations.
* Ground rods 3' apart.
* Mounting condensing fan disco's behind the units with no working space
* Not following the approved, stamped plans in commercial work.

Don't call me for a rough wiring inspection and not have the grounds tied together and bonded to the enclosure then complain that you have to have all of the devices pulled out of the walls for me to see inside the boxes since you did not have them connected the first time.

Don't ever ask me "What do you want?" it is not what I or any other inspector wants. What is required is something you should already know.

Do call me to ask me for a clarification on an issue.

Do not call me to ask me 10 questions about the installation you are about to do and take up 30 minutes of my time on the phone. I don't design it for you, I verify what you did was code compliant and per the approved prints for commercial jobs.

Don't get PO'd at me because I won't sign off on an inspection because you are not done but tell me you will have it done by the end of the day. When you are done, I can check your work. If you are not done, cancel the inspection and reschedule.

All of the items I marked in blue are suspect in regards to the detail you provided and what is or is not a code requirement - unless of course there are local requirements.


I spoke to a large number of electricians (and still do) during my years as an inspector. There is nothing better for any inspector than to be able to go to the jobsite and approve an installation. It is much easier in my opinion to discuss the issues on the phone than it is to drive to the job who knows how many times.

I will say that engineering a job for an unknowledgeable electrician is a different story.

One of the main issues I saw as an electrician and still see today, is that the lack of knowledge on both sides and the very little proper communication that goes on in this industry is a culprit of why there are so many issues between the installers and the inspectors. But we can leave that portion of the discussion for another day.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
&
HAPPY HOLIDAYS

 

[iwire]

All of the items I marked in blue are suspect in regards to the detail you provided and what is or is not a code requirement - unless of course there are local requirements.

I think that is a good way to put it, not enough detail for us to really agree or disagree about the items in blue.

It is much easier in my opinion to discuss the issues on the phone than it is to drive to the job who knows how many times.

Better for both of us.

I will say that engineering a job for an unknowledgeable electrician is a different story.

I agree, you should not be expected to do the ECs work for them.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
&
HAPPY HOLIDAYS

Ditto that to all.

 

[scwirenut]

I think we have to remember that as a city/county inspector, you are not doing us "any favors" by inspecting our work. we pay those salary's through taxes and permit fees. in other words lets dont forget who the boss is. I as a contractor could just as easily produce a list of things that inspectors better not do when they step on my job to inspect. and finally, not to open up this debate again, but what citing are you gonna give me for "Mounting condensing fan disco's behind the units with no working space" when this is switch?

 

[Cavie]

There seems to be a lot of complaining about inspectors and their lack of code knowledge. This is a common a problem for electricians as it is inspectors. Here are a few failed inspection finds that one would think would be common knowledge for a professional electrician:


* Running 12/2 to and between every smoke detector that is suppose to be interconnected.

Are you saying it must be 12/3 or just 3 wire. 12 not required for smokes unless a local code.

 

[infinity]

Don't call me for a rough wiring inspection and not have the grounds tied together and bonded to the enclosure then complain that you have to have all of the devices pulled out of the walls for me to see inside the boxes since you did not have them connected the first time.

Since this isn't in the code book it would be a courtesy to the inspector to do this prior to an inspection.

Don't ever ask me "What do you want?" it is not what I or any other inspector wants. What is required is something you should already know.

If everyone knew everything we wouldn't need inspections or this forum.

Do not call me to ask me 10 questions about the installation you are about to do and take up 30 minutes of my time on the phone. I don't design it for you, I verify what you did was code compliant and per the approved prints for commercial jobs.

Here I actually agree with you. The inspector shouldn't be the designer for an incompetant contractor.

Scwirenut hit the nail on the head. The inspector works for us not the other way around. If your salary isn't commensurate with the number of hours you put in every week that's not really our problem.

 

[ivsenroute]

Thanks for the heads up Iwire. yes my skin is thick and I have an answer, reply for every single question. I will touch on a few.

* Clarification, installing ELECTRIC baseboard heat below an existing receptacle.
* NEC compliant may not cut it if the job was designed and stamped by an EE as required in PA for commercial jobs. If you deviate from the stamped/approved plans, you must submit your change in writing for approval from the EE and AHJ. This is a state law for code compliance, not something in the NEC. Dont' forget, the NEC supplements and is part of a larger code picture.
* If the calculated load is 318A and you run 500 aluminum for a 400A service, there is a problem.
* If your calculated load is 318A and the ul label on the 2 gang meter is 200A total then there is a problem.
* 12/2 between smokes is overkill which is not a problem but since it is not 3 wire it is a problem.
* Answering a question or two to clarify and issue is one thing. Asking me 10 questions such as "What size conduit do you want? Should I use SE or put it in conduit? How many receptacles should I put on circuit #2? How far apart do you want the ground rods? Where do I need to put the smoke detectors? What size wire should I run to the motor? These are some that I hear which are fine by themselves but not when i suspect that i am designing the job for you.

 

[Paelectrician]

I think one of the problems is every inspector has different standards. Many go outside the scope of the job and try to change the rules of the game in the 7th inning. I'm not saying you do, but many do!

 

[480sparky]

I think one of the problems is every inspector has different standards. Many go outside the scope of the job and try to change the rules of the game in the 7th inning. I'm not saying you do, but many do!

To those that do, a Code reference should be requested immediately.

I've met plenty of expectors who enjoy doling out shirt-pocket rules. I simply ask for a Code reference.

 

[Paelectrician]

To those that do, a Code reference should be requested immediately.

I've met plenty of expectors who enjoy doling out shirt-pocket rules. I simply ask for a Code reference.

I agree, 100% but these are things that drive you nuts with inspectors. There are many good ones and many clowns, the same with electrical contractors. I can see the frustration on both sides.

 

[ivsenroute]

I will clarify the XFMR issue because I did not give the right information. There was a ground ring spec'ed out by the POCO that was to be connected inside the CT cabinet mounted next to the XFMR on the customer side. It is customary for the EC to make the connection at the CT in some of our areas (we have multiple POCOS). So why would you connect all 5 sets of parallel conductors but then not the ground?

* As far as the firewall is concerned, this shows that there us much more to the job of an EC other than NEC compliance. In this case, the firewall was breached more than 36" above the finished floor which is a violation of the firewall requirements, including the insurance carrier through Factory Mutual. The penetration had to be removed, sealed and placed below the 36" mark to comply. This is a true firewall, not a fire rated partition, a free standing firewall.

 

[ivsenroute]

I think one of the problems is every inspector has different standards. Many go outside the scope of the job and try to change the rules of the game in the 7th inning. I'm not saying you do, but many do!

I approve and sign off of things that i dont like every day. They are code compliant and I may have not done them that way but I approve them because that is my job.

We make mistakes too. We are often overwhelmed with multiple complicated projects going on at the same time. No one is perfect. I do have a problem with inspectors who make up their own rules and the opposite problem, those who don't know what they are doing and pass every single inspection. That is a bigger problem.

If an inspector is easy and passes everything, nonething can be more dangerous.

When an inspector makes something up, you can challenge him and use the NEC to prove that you are right. That is not as dangerous.

More than once I have backed down and stated that I was wrong and the EC was right. They did their homework. No hard feelings, I appreciate being corrected unlike many EC's who do not like being corrected because they have worked in areas where they were able to get away with things and only learned by watching others and failing inspections.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I think the point in the OP is that if he writing up more than 1 or 2 out of that list that there is likely not a qualified electrician running this job. Anyone can miss a few by accident.
And it is likely that inspectors keep writing the same violations every day.
I always take time to inspect my own work but that does not mean i catch all my mistakes and even after the inspector leaves it does not mean nothing was missed.

As to his money, lets be fair here. Yes permit fees pay him but take a look at areas that have no inspectors, do we really want that.

Taxes pay for cops too, so are we there boss ?

The very fact that inspectors are taging things every day is pretty much proof that we need them. Some are not qualified to inspect but then some are not qualified to be an electrician either. I do exspect inspectors to know the code better than an electrician. If they don't catch it then who will ?

Part of his list is subject to details.

 

[Paelectrician]

I approve and sign off of things that i dont like every day. They are code compliant and I may have not done them that way but I approve them because that is my job.

We make mistakes too. We are often overwhelmed with multiple complicated projects going on at the same time. No one is perfect. I do have a problem with inspectors who make up their own rules and the opposite problem, those who don't know what they are doing and pass every single inspection. That is a bigger problem.

If an inspector is easy and passes everything, nonething can be more dangerous.

When an inspector makes something up, you can challenge him and use the NEC to prove that you are right. That is not as dangerous.

More than once I have backed down and stated that I was wrong and the EC was right. They did their homework. No hard feelings, I appreciate being corrected unlike many EC's who do not like being corrected because they have worked in areas where they were able to get away with things and only learned by watching others and failing inspections.

I agree, i think there are good and bad on both sides of the aisle! What part of Pa do you work in?