Federal Pacific - The definitive answer

[AV ELECTRIC]

Well the panels that ive seen burn up the most have been ge from the 1980s. Usually from the main breaker failing melting the buss and destoying the panel.this is a residential meter combination ive never replaced fp combination do to the panel frying. Now these panels usaully dont have a main breraker that ive seen. Now would I recommend replacing the fp panels i would say yes. Would I do the same for the ge. I would like to inspect the main and the other breakers for any problems and if they look good i would sign off. I think this is a homeowners responsibility to maintain his electrical system. panels should be checked cleaned out yearly buy a qualified person . We do it for are cars and other things. It seems most homeowners would rather ignore there electrical system maybe we have to make more of a point about it to are customers

 

[shermansfather]

I was commenting on the bold portion of this post. That sounds like a government agency forcing a property owner to rip out a piece of listed equipment. My question is what do they use as a basis for this requiement?

I'm not sure if they have any legal standing, I'm just saying it happens all the time. Here's what actually happens:

1) This suburb has had pre inspection for 25 years, it used to be handled by any one of three 3 guys in building dept. either Insp. A electrical, Insp. B plumbing & buildings or Insp. C buliding commisioner.

2) A few years back urban flight begins housing sale boom, last year foreclosures hurt them big, half of this cities houses are for sale other half are for rent (you need a yearly inspection to rent). City hires 2 or 3 part time "home inspectors".

3) I'm not sure what qualifications these H.I.s have, but they will violate FPE panels. I don't remember the regular inspectors tagging FPE's

4) I believe if a homeowner took this to the bldg. commisioner or a lawyer and had a fit they would back down.

5) Now this inspection is on record, buyers can access this I think, I know I can. Even if the city reconsiders the buyer is going to either want it done or suitable discount.

6) Major corrections like panel changed are then inspected by the regular E.I., not the part time H.I. that wrote it up. Minor stuff is re-inpected by H.I.

I didn't mean to run on, just present what happens

 

[shermansfather]

I should probably start a new thread, but I'll end with this couple cuts out of a recent pre-sale violation sheet. This does not involve an FPE panel, I just had it handy and got a kick out of the last line and what some guy has to do before he sells his $40,00.00 bungalow.


1755.16(a)(9)
Identify disconnecting means in all panels and/or sub-panels.
NEW PANEL
1755.16(b)
Install 100 amp service. Permit required.
1755.16(c)(1)
Rewire garage to minimum requirements of the current edition of the National Electrical Code or terminate service and completely remove all wiring
1755.22(F)(1)
Replace overly soiled and damaged carpet in designated area(s).
REPLACE ALL OR RE-FINISH ALL FLOORS.

 

[rfa72487]

FPE panels

FPE panels

I have had a similar experience with FPE panels. I do not call them unsafe just obsolete. It may be safe for an electrician but I have seen insurance companies surcharge HO for continuing to use these panels.

 

[480sparky]

...... I do not call them unsafe just obsolete...........

I would call them potentially unsafe. Without testing each individual breaker, it's impossible to know whether they will function as designed or not. And it's far cheaper and easier to just replace them than to test them.

 

[cschmid]

I just found this. http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/federal-pacific-definitive-answer-44106/

This is from Google Alerts:

"Federal Pacific - The definitive answer - InterNACHI Message Board
By jfarsetta
By having insurance companies demand a inspection that identifies the problem. Then the insurance company sends a letter to the homeowner demanding that they upgrade or lose their coverage. ... I hate coming across a FP panel. I called out one and the electrician told the homeowner nothing was wrong with it. So now I'm hesitant. The home owner was not happy having to pay a electrician when according to the electrician nothing was wrong with it. ...
InterNACHI Message Board - http://www.nachi.org/forum/ "


No good answers there yet. I just thought 'IF' something was good we would ALL like to know.

So just because it says federal pacific on it it is bad???

Please tell me you dont rule old equipement bad just by it's name..

 

[iwire]

FWIW

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml83/83008.html

 

[cschmid]

You know when the government starts to regulate how I sell my house I have issues..

If the Buyer is buying house as is and he knows the carpets are shot why would the seller have to replace them????

So if I sell a used 10 year old used car and 25 days later the brakes go out am I responsible???

What does buying "as is" mean..

the mortage companies should be setting the standard for what they will finance not the government..

Wow has our society changed.

 

[renosteinke]

Apart from the specific merits or faults of FPE panels, we've been at this issue long enough for another element to enter discussions: design life.

Everything has a 'design life.' It's interesting when you read various engineering papers; it seems that for electrical design a 'life' of less than 30 years is assumed. That is, even the best gear isn't imagined to be in service much more than that.

As you might guess, this assumption contributes to every design decision that follows: how much zinc to plate the steel with, how heavy the steel needs to be, what plastics to use, etc. The assumption influences quality control tests; do you want that switch to survive 10,000 or 10,000,000 operations?

It's amazing how everyone clams up on this topic. Even makers of 'premium' products are mum. This surprises me; you would think some slaes force out there would be claiming 'ours is designed to last twice as long as theirs.'

What I'm getting at is this: everything in the house you grew up in has surpassed it's "design life." Even if that panel is Square D, Cutler-Hammer, (insert name of panel you like here), it wasn't expected to last this long. You really want to get down to it, all of these panels "ought" to be replaced.

With FPE and Zinsco, it's an easy call to make; they stopped making them that long ago. Yet, a 50 yr. old Siemans looks a lot like a brand new one - so it's harder to tell the age.

Another thing that surprises me is that, considering all of the FPE and Zinsco panels out there, that no one has seen fir to make replacement panel "guts" that drop in place, and let you connect to the existing wiring. I don't know about you, but I love the idea of a 30-minute swap-out. Instead, I can't even get replacement GE guts for a GE panel! (Or, for that matter, help identifying the current, similar model of panel).

 

[LarryFine]

Everything has a 'design life.' It's interesting when you read various engineering papers; it seems that for electrical design a 'life' of less than 30 years is assumed. That is, even the best gear isn't imagined to be in service much more than that.

What I'm getting at is this: everything in the house you grew up in has surpassed it's "design life." Even if that panel is Square D, Cutler-Hammer, (insert name of panel you like here), it wasn't expected to last this long. You really want to get down to it, all of these panels "ought" to be replaced.

You'd think that, with all the manufacturer-driven code requirements we already have, they'd be pressing for an "everything must be replaced periodically" requirement. :roll:

 

[jxofaltrds]

You'd think that, with all the manufacturer-driven code requirements we already have, they'd be pressing for an "everything must be replaced periodically" requirement. :roll:

A few years back there was an article in IAEI magazine where they quoted electricians say that the wiring should be replace after 30 years. Wish I could remember the issue.

 

[zog]

I would call them potentially unsafe. Without testing each individual breaker, it's impossible to know whether they will function as designed or not. And it's far cheaper and easier to just replace them than to test them.

Agreed, but that logic applies to every breaker in every panel regardless of manufacturer.

 

[mxslick]

From iwire's link: (Bolds added by me.)

The Commission staff estimates that it would cost several million dollars to gather the data necessary to assess fully whether those circuit breakers which are installed in homes but which may fail UL calibration tests present a risk to the public. Based on the Commission's limited budget ($34 million for fiscal year 1983), the known hazards the Commission has identified and must address (involving products of other manufacturers) and the uncertainty of the results of such a costly investigation, the Commission has decided not to commit further resources to its investigation of FPE's circuit breakers.

A fine example of doublespeak. Yes, there is a known problem, but we don't want to devote the resources to getting a definitive answer.

A search of this forum will reveal many threads and posts about FPE, including some firsthand accounts of problems with FPE as reported by members of this forum.

By the same token, as others have mentioned in this thread, there are some issues with other brands too, (GE for example) and I guess if you factor in the literally tens of millions of electrical installations in the US alone, you will find evidence of problems will ALL brands of electrical gear.

 

[renosteinke]

"Without testing every breaker"

Here's a news flash: It is impossible to test every breaker. Indeed, it is npt even possible to perform all the tests on even one breaker. Why? Because several of the tests destroy the test sample.

Instead, the breakers are tested in a statistical manner. If 100 breakers are pulled off the assembly line. mabe 10 go for one test, 5 to another, etc ... and the results are assumed to speak for the entire production run.

While there are various tests manufacturers subject their breakers to before shipping them, these tests are simply for quality control, and are in no way true 'performance' tests.

While the manufacturers have all manner of specially constructed machinery to perform their tests, there is NO way to test breakers in the field. Well, maybe that's changing .... a few years back someone was selling a $1000 gizmo that was supposedly able to field test 15 and 20 amp single pole breakers; I have not heard how it turned out.

One last note: The weakness in testing are best illustrated in the New York tests that everyone points to. Those tests found fault only with 2-pole breakers; the single-pole FPE breakers did fine. Yet, this study has been used to condemn all breakers of that make, or style, without regard for differences in age or manufacturer. That's painting with a pretty broad brush.

Ditto with the 'falsified tests at the factory' issue. Such statements ignore the fact that UL does not rely upon either those tests, or the factory providing their their test samples. Rather, the samples are chosen by UL personnel, and tested at UL's facilities. Those tests were never suspect, and FPE never had any UL problems in this regard.

I suspect that any batch of "Unique" or "Federal Pioneer" breakers (contemporary breakers of FPE design) would fare just fine if they were submitted to UL for a full evaluation today.

 

[flashlight]

FWIW

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml83/83008.html

The report in that link basically says, "the breakers in the study had problems with not tripping on overloads, but that does not pose a risk to homeowners."

 

[zog]

"Without testing every breaker"

Here's a news flash: It is impossible to test every breaker. Indeed, it is npt even possible to perform all the tests on even one breaker. Why? Because several of the tests destroy the test sample.

ANSI, NFPA 70B, NETA, NEMA, and IEEE all have similar test procedures for all breaker types and none of them are destructive test.

Instead, the breakers are tested in a statistical manner. If 100 breakers are pulled off the assembly line. mabe 10 go for one test, 5 to another, etc ... and the results are assumed to speak for the entire production run.

Called batch testing, and it is more like 2 out of 1000. The only reason they dont test every one is it costs too much and deflates profits. The # of batch tests that are done is the result of a comparision of costs of waranty claims and suits vs the cost of testing.

While the manufacturers have all manner of specially constructed machinery to perform their tests, there is NO way to test breakers in the field. Well, maybe that's changing .... a few years back someone was selling a $1000 gizmo that was supposedly able to field test 15 and 20 amp single pole breakers; I have not heard how it turned out.

I, like thousands of others in the US have made entire careers out of testing breakers. The breaker test equipment industry has been a bilion dollar industry for years.

.[/QUOTE]

 

[renosteinke]

Zog, how about links to those 'testing standards?"

I only ask, because the one I'm familiar with was recalled / cancelled by NEMA. While the standard clearly stated that it was NOT for testing use ore 'reconditioned' breakers, the used breaker folks claimed it was the only non-destructive standard available.

Likewise, I've seen the UL statements that they are not able to test breakers without destroying them. What are you able to do that UL cannot do?

 

[zog]

Zog, how about links to those 'testing standards?"

www.netaworld.org For starters

Likewise, I've seen the UL statements that they are not able to test breakers without destroying them. What are you able to do that UL cannot do?

There are 2 different types of testing, the UL tests you are refering to here are very different tests than the "batch testing" you were refering to earlier. UL tests a design, acceptance testing tests the performance of that specific breaker. Primary current injection (Preferably with secondary current injection verification) is a non destructive tet done in the field by many companies everyday and is used as a "calibration test" (As refered to in the article) to verify the device operates within the manufactures published time current paramaters.

 

[PetrosA]

If the insurance companies refuse to insure homes with FPE systems, that is, in effect, loss of UL listing. UL (at least by name) works for the insurance companies (underwriters), right?

I noticed a few voices in support of leaving FPE systems in place. After practically welding hots to grounded boxes/fixture housings without the FPE breaker tripping, I'm surprised anyone could NOT recommend a panel replacement.

 

[iwire]

It seems to me that we are all talking about different kinds of FPE breakers.

There are many large FPE breakers that are no better or worse then other brands, but I would bet my pay check that 99% of the posters in this thread are talking about FPE stab lok breakers.

I, like thousands of others in the US have made entire careers out of testing breakers. The breaker test equipment industry has been a bilion dollar industry for years.

I find it doubtful that anyone is making money teating theses kinds of FPE breakers.

Maybe I am wrong, but as far as I know breakers in this size are throw away breakers, if you question if they work you replace them ... not send them out for testing.

Now this FPE breaker, I am sure would be worth testing.