Fire alarm device compatibility: Siemens devices w/ new non-proprietary system

[Dark Sparky]

We are engineering/designing a renovation to an existing church which has an existing Siemens fire alarm system.

The owner would like to replace the Siemens system with a nonproprietary system - likely either Firelite or Notifier.
We are also putting in a small addition - just a few meeting rooms - and adding some HVAC equipment. So we'll likely need a few more points added to the FA system.

Is a new non-proprietary FACP going to be compatible with the existing Siemens notification & initiation devices?
Is it typical to be able to install a new non-proprietary FACP, and connect the existing Siemens devices to it?
Or are we likely going to need all new devices as well?
Any other high-level considerations we should be taking into account?

Any questions welcome; I'll be onsite in the morning (Jan. 3) to gather more info.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ron]

2 wire detectors are required to be listed with the associated control panel.

BTW Notifier is just about as proprietary as Siemens.

 

[Fire Pro]

It would probably be Firelite or Silent Knight, Notifier is proprietary although it's basically Firelite parts.

Notification devices might be compatible, more than likely not with the initiating. Depending on how old the equipment is, you'll probably want all new devices anyway, and you can probably reuse most if not all the existing wire.

 

[gadfly56]

Both Siemens addressable alarm devices and notification appliances will not be listed for anything other than the Siemens panel.

Why dump the Siemens panel? It's a good system and parts are available. If it's an old MXL panel there are drop-in kits to upgrade to the XLS platform.

 

[Dark Sparky]

non-proprietary mfgs

non-proprietary mfgs

2 wire detectors are required to be listed with the associated control panel.

BTW Notifier is just about as proprietary as Siemens.

ron - thank you. Can you expand on your comment about Notifier being proprietary?
Firelite would qualify as non-proprietary in your book?

Thanks again.

 

[Dark Sparky]

wiring / siemens

wiring / siemens

Both Siemens addressable alarm devices and notification appliances will not be listed for anything other than the Siemens panel.

Why dump the Siemens panel? It's a good system and parts are available. If it's an old MXL panel there are drop-in kits to upgrade to the XLS platform.

gadfly56 - I believe they are not happy with Siemen's cost & support. Not sure about specific reasons. Yes - it's an MXL-IQ


So if we switch to a non-proprietary system like Firelite, we would need all new devices, but could reuse the wiring?

 

[Strathead]

ron - thank you. Can you expand on your comment about Notifier being proprietary?
Firelite would qualify as non-proprietary in your book?

Thanks again.

Proprietary means that only factory licensed distributors can buy and provide components for the system. In many cases they are also the only ones who can program the system. Notifier is one of those. You can't just go out and buy their parts.

 

[peter d]

Proprietary means that only factory licensed distributors can buy and provide components for the system. In many cases they are also the only ones who can program the system. Notifier is one of those. You can't just go out and buy their parts.

I ran into that this past summer. I had to replace a pull station that went bad. I ended up getting it from a local fire alarm company that deals with Notifier. They sold it to me because I'm a licensed electrical contractor.

 

[Strathead]

I ran into that this past summer. I had to replace a pull station that went bad. I ended up getting it from a local fire alarm company that deals with Notifier. They sold it to me because I'm a licensed electrical contractor.

You can get parts for an arm and a leg. Simplex, EST Notifier, you can buy the parts from and authorized distributor, but at a significant mark up.

 

[peter d]

You can get parts for an arm and a leg. Simplex, EST Notifier, you can buy the parts from and authorized distributor, but at a significant mark up.

The pull station wasn't that much more expensive than a Firelite. They didn't jack the price up on me.

 

[gadfly56]

gadfly56 - I believe they are not happy with Siemen's cost & support. Not sure about specific reasons. Yes - it's an MXL-IQ


So if we switch to a non-proprietary system like Firelite, we would need all new devices, but could reuse the wiring?

Generally, yes. If they are not happy with Siemens, assuming they are dealing with a Siemens office, there are any number of value added re-sellers (VAR's) who could service the panel. Kistler-O'Brien comes to mind. I don't have an affiliation with them, but I know they are one of the larger VAR's for Siemens and they are based in Pennsylvania.

For a non-proprietary system, I have found Silent Knight to be very flexible, easy to install, and easy to program.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I despise Siemens. Go Gamewell.

 

[peter d]

I despise Siemens. Go Gamewell.

I despise all proprietary systems, period.

 

[Strathead]

I despise all proprietary systems, period.

Even though Simplex, now Johnson Controls is the worst of them, the addressable notification devices they now have, are the cat's meow. Especially when you are in a complex initiation and notification building like a hotel with suites, handicap, hearing impaired, carbon monoxide detectors with a different audible tone, etc.

 

[gadfly56]

Even though Simplex, now Johnson Controls is the worst of them, the addressable notification devices they now have, are the cat's meow. Especially when you are in a complex initiation and notification building like a hotel with suites, handicap, hearing impaired, carbon monoxide detectors with a different audible tone, etc.

I will repeat a comment I've made previously; addressable notification appliances are a solution in search of a problem. They don't offer anything that can't be achieved by using a signal or control module (depending on the manufacturer's nomenclature) and standard NAC devices. Otherwise, it's the joy of trouble-shooting three sources when the device goes down; power, SLC, and speaker (for high-rise/mass notification).

 

[Strathead]

I will repeat a comment I've made previously; addressable notification appliances are a solution in search of a problem. They don't offer anything that can't be achieved by using a signal or control module (depending on the manufacturer's nomenclature) and standard NAC devices. Otherwise, it's the joy of trouble-shooting three sources when the device goes down; power, SLC, and speaker (for high-rise/mass notification).

I know you have a lot of experience with fire alarm, more than me, I think. But I see huge advantages to the addressable. When you have a multi floor hotel, some of the parameters required are:

• individual system smokes need to notify only the room or suite they are in.
• rooms with hearing impaired have high candela strobes that need to comply with the above, but also go off during a general alarm.
• some areas have system carbon monoxide detection. When that goes off it needs to send a supervisory to the desk, but also trigger a temporal code 4 for only the devices in that suite.

It is so simple to program different temporal codes for different actions, and trigger only specific NAC devices for specific initiating actions.

With a conventional system every room has to have a control relay with a constant 24V for single room notification, along with a separate NAC zone for the hallways or the smoke detectors have to have a control relay and extra wiring. I don't even know how you accomplish the CO tone, without putting an additional device in.

Perhaps your state doesn't require a Temporal code three for NAC and a code 4 for CO, but I think that is national.

 

[victor.cherkashi]

[*]rooms with hearing impaired have high candela strobes that need to comply with the above, but also go off during a general alarm.
[*]some areas have system carbon monoxide detection. When that goes off it needs to send a supervisory to the desk, but also trigger a temporal code 4 for only the devices in that suite.
[/LIST]
.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious, what is source of this requirements. code? Guide? State? Local? Best practice?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

 

[Strathead]

[*]rooms with hearing impaired have high candela strobes that need to comply with the above, but also go off during a general alarm.
[*]some areas have system carbon monoxide detection. When that goes off it needs to send a supervisory to the desk, but also trigger a temporal code 4 for only the devices in that suite.
[/LIST]
.

I'm curious, what is source of this requirements. code? Guide? State? Local? Best practice?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


A little of each. Rooms for hearing impaired have to have 177CD strobes within 15' of each pillow in a room. They have to go off with the suite smoke detector/s and with general alarm. that is code
CO detectors I think the requirement is by state In my State if there is gas in the building then they are required in the room with gas and all surrounding rooms. The code 4 temporal, I believe is a national code. Whether they are tied in to the fire alarm system, I believe is preference.

Smoke detectors in rooms don't need to be tied in tot he fire alarm system, but many hotel chains require it.