Fixing the NEC

[tortuga]

There's nothing to bond on a fiber drop to a house. Mine isn't bonded. I have never seen an intersystem bond used. What's the point of having something that isn't used?

Before we had these requirements I'd see cable guys and dish network installers bonding to a metal hoze bib that was on a PEX piping system, strange straps on service masts, I saw a CATV guy bond to a PVC mast. Just because one communications utility does it that was does not mean they all do, someone might still have Coax, landline DSL, or say Satellite dish, or other antenna type utilities. Then you might have interior com systems that need a place to bond. I might tend to agree if we still had the old Bell Telephone CWA trained phone installers from the 80's they got the bonding correct
And in my area they actually run a type of fiber that is armored and direct burial rated..

For 805.156 it was meant for a phone line. When it came in during what, 08?, we ran a Cat5 from outside to a 1g box inside to hook up a cordless phone base, because people still used land lines. That time has passed. Codes should be changed or deleted when they are obsolete.

See the definition of communications circut in article 100, a empty conduit is fine, and in multi family construction its tacky to have a brand new building then have the cable guy cover it with spaghetti coax or fiber.

 

[jim dungar]

US customary units followed in parentheses by the equivalent value in SI units is the only way. THIS IS THE US!!

Predominantly this seems only to be an issue with highway signs and construction trades. My mechanic has been using metric measurements for some 20 years and has no problem switching between them and inches.

 

[tortuga]

11. Get rid of the separate barrier rule for multi-gang meter packs.

Our State (Oregon) has a list of amendments, we did amend 230.71 to allow this, I think the original NFPA proposal was targeting 480V and above and I was going to submit an exception for something like 300V or less that would cover 240 and 208 systems but the state board basically decided to keep the 2017 wording.
If you can't change it at the NFPA, and your state is a small state like NH make a proposal to your state electrical board or whomever adopts the NEC to adopt the Oregon NEC amendments, they are written in a reusable fashion.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

805.156 just requires one communications outlet, it could literally be a empty 3/4" smurf tube, or even a pull string to a mud ring with a blank cover. You dont need to run a phone line.

That is in 720.9 in the 2026 code, but the problem is that it requires the communications outlet to be "cabled to the service provider demarcation point" If there is no communication supplier, there is on service provider demarcation point to cable the communication out to. The rule in 805.156 has the same issue. Physically impossible to comply with.
In discussions with some of the people on the low voltage task force, this rule is very unlikely to be in the 2029 code.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Handle tying multi wire branch circuits is the same thing.

The handle tie rule was driven by lack of training in the industry and some prior poor practices and a number of deaths and injuries because the worker had no idea he was working on a multiwire branch circuit, especially when the 3 breakers for a 3 phase multiwire branch circuit are scattered around the panel. For example the supply breakers for a 3 phase multiwire branch circuit are 1, 16, and 29. How is the worker to know that is a multiwire circuit and understand the hazards of working on the neutral of such a circuit when there is no indication that it is a multiwire circuit.

 

[hbiss]

My mechanic has been using metric measurements for some 20 years and has no problem switching between them and inches.

But he is working on things that are not made or designed here.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

Switching to the metric system in the US was unanimously turned down each time it came up since 1926 when it was first proposed. Since we do not use the metric system, it is improper for an American publishing company that primarily publishes for US consumption to put SI units before US customary units. It's just an example of how the CMPs fail to think.

Further, what purpose does emphasizing SI units serve? For example, nobody here uses a metric tape measure to measure panel clearance, conduit diameter, support spacing or a million other things we measure every day.

-Hal

 

[AC\DC]

The system is open for the submission of Public Inputs to make changes for the 2029 code until end of day April 9th. Have at it, but remember most public inputs that are rejected are rejected for lack of a solid technical substantiation that supports the proposed change. For example, in your #1, saying they don't do anything and are worthless, is not a technical substantiation.

Yet all these stupid rules got in for same reason your claiming they won’t get removed it’s a joke

 

[zbang]

Since we do not use the metric system,

actually..... there was a GHW Bush executive order setting the use of the metric system as a national policy, it just wasn't mandatory. There was also the Metric Conversion act, signed by Ford, and a few others.

Besides, we do use metric units, or more correctly SI units, all the time - volts/watts/amperes/ohms are all SI. Many things are sold in liters or grams, or are marked with those - most people don't see that - length/distance seems to be the real sticking point. Come to think of it, IIRC dimensional lumber sizes are now specified in mm, but we still call it a 2 by 4 even though it hasn't been that for decades.

As long as it says "30.5cm (12 inches)" what's the problem? (12" = 30.48cm, but that's close enough for most things.) A couple of my tape measures have both.

 

[hbiss]

As long as it says "30.5cm (12 inches)" what's the problem?

Because it should say 12 inches (30.5cm) if there even needs to be a metric measurement given. It's just absolute stupidity because nobody needs it. They probably think that by ramming it down our throats eventually the new generation will accept it. It's all playing with our heads.

there was a GHW Bush executive order setting the use of the metric system as a national policy, it just wasn't mandatory. There was also the Metric Conversion act, signed by Ford, and a few others.

Which went absolutely no place.

-Hal

 

[going_commando]

The handle tie rule was driven by lack of training in the industry and some prior poor practices and a number of deaths and injuries because the worker had no idea he was working on a multiwire branch circuit, especially when the 3 breakers for a 3 phase multiwire branch circuit are scattered around the panel. For example the supply breakers for a 3 phase multiwire branch circuit are 1, 16, and 29. How is the worker to know that is a multiwire circuit and understand the hazards of working on the neutral of such a circuit when there is no indication that it is a multiwire circuit.

While I understand the intent, the problem is it's more of a hazard now, because new electricians expect them to be handle tied. It wasn't done into the 90s, so most places a guy works in won't have handle ties. Most places I work that are newly wired (20 years old or newer) skip MWBCs completely and run separate neutrals. I'm still partial to them, as 9 circuits in a 3/4 emt is a handy time and $ saver. I do handle tie them, but most places I do work in that use them aren't handle tied.

 

[tom baker]

“Code is code.
We don’t like the rules we don’t agree with.
It’s ok for someone else.
But not if it costs us time and money”
Mike Holt said this in one of his seminars

 

[going_commando]

actually..... there was a GHW Bush executive order setting the use of the metric system as a national policy, it just wasn't mandatory. There was also the Metric Conversion act, signed by Ford, and a few others.

Besides, we do use metric units, or more correctly SI units, all the time - volts/watts/amperes/ohms are all SI. Many things are sold in liters or grams, or are marked with those - most people don't see that - length/distance seems to be the real sticking point. Come to think of it, IIRC dimensional lumber sizes are now specified in mm, but we still call it a 2 by 4 even though it hasn't been that for decades.

As long as it says "30.5cm (12 inches)" what's the problem? (12" = 30.48cm, but that's close enough for most things.) A couple of my tape measures have both.

All the sawmills I've been in use inches, including one built 2 years ago.

I do keep a metric tape measure in the van. It makes laying out VFD mounting holes way easier. Dealing with "11 37/64" is stupid, because the drive manufacturer just runs their metric measurement through a calculator and don't care that we can only measure to a 1/16.

 

[raberding]

Our State (Oregon) has a list of amendments, we did amend 230.71 to allow this, I think the original NFPA proposal was targeting 480V and above and I was going to submit an exception for something like 300V or less that would cover 240 and 208 systems but the state board basically decided to keep the 2017 wording.
If you can't change it at the NFPA, and your state is a small state like NH make a proposal to your state electrical board or whomever adopts the NEC to adopt the Oregon NEC amendments, they are written in a reusable fashion.

wow - looks like Oregon got it mostly right.

 

[jim dungar]

wow - looks like Oregon got it mostly right.

Wisconsin simply stayed on the 2017 version with a little customizing.

 

[tortuga]

All the sawmills I've been in use inches, including one built 2 years ago.

Yeah interesting topic, they (or we) might use inches but here in Oregon we don't mill to 2X4 since around 1970, North American framing lumber is already milled to standardized actual sizes that read naturally in metric, Put a metric tape on a dry 2x4 and you will see about 40 x 90 mm. 1/2 " plywood? 12mm. In the early 1970s we (the US) updated our North American softwood lumber standards around these sizes, and around this time countries like Japan, Mexico, and Canada all aligned their size system .
Its not that one way is better its really just cheaper for you the consumer.
The lumber standards all sort of naturally evolved in the early 70's. kinda like how the width of a train car can be traced back to the width of a roman road and so the the width of a container ship is based on how many containers fit on it which can be traced back to roman roads... Here in Oregon today we can mill the same wood for export as is used the US. If we had to mill true 2X4's the cost would go way up.
Still today the cost of having to maintain separate inventory, labels, paperwork, and market conventions for the same product is effectively a HUGE tax you pay for country specific labeling, as you all probably know I am sure many of us here work in manufacturing of some sort and its obviously cheaper if everything on one production line line. Just like Its cheaper to print instructions in every language and run a one packaging line or at least have a North American line and just print instructions for North America, not one line for every country.
The U.S. customary units we love with (feet, pounds, gallons, Fahrenheit, etc.) if I am not mistaken are all officially defined in terms of SI units, stuff like mass, length, and volume have been defined in metric units since 1893. I do prefer working in feet and inches when framing as I am familiar with it but some small scale projects its better to us mm, and with smart phones, and smart tools like CAD its easier than ever to just use what works for you.

Besides, we do use metric units, or more correctly SI units, all the time - volts/watts/amperes/ohms are all SI.

^^^^^ yes thats a important point in the electrical world is SI is the industry standard, United States does not even have have a separate everyday U.S. customary electrical unit system for because most if it was invented that way. lighting is one area where older non-SI units such as footcandles and candlepower lingered alongside SI units like lux and candela. Magnetism also had a mixed past. But the NEC is a Electrical code not a Plumbing code so I'd say take some pride in your home grown heritage.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It's just an example of how the CMPs fail to think.

The CMPs had no part in and no voice on changing to the metric first. That was done by NFPA paid staff.

 

[WD40]

THIS IS AMERICA! If they want to include metric equivalents put them last! Just shows their ignorance.

Lots of all american things use metric just go to your local state store, I'd say the all american way is to use a mixed salad of standards that don't make sense, Kentucky Bourbon is sold in liters like a 750ml that pretty all american, some soda is a 1L soda but I can buy a 8oz can of soda, don't even get me started on truck tires.

 

[hbiss]

Here in Oregon today we can mill the same wood for export as is used the US. If we had to mill true 2X4's the cost would go way up.

I understand that you have to manufacture for the world market. Just like power supplies are designed for 100 to 240 volts and you just get a plug that matches whatever your country uses.

The CMPs had no part in and no voice on changing to the metric first. That was done by NFPA paid staff.

Well, maybe someone should submit a PI to change it. I can't be the only one who finds it annoying. It's more like being politically correct than anything useful.

-Hal