- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Foyers
Thanks Pierre.
Thanks Pierre.
Foyers
- Thread starter explorer136
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jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Foyers
I too agree with Mr. Badger and Mr. Belarge that the code should be enforced to the letter. All too often we jump up and down, wail, cruse, cry and turn red when the code official turns us down and we know we are right. The thoughts at this time is to get this idiot fired, tarred and feathered and run out of town.
When he is right and it is going to cost us we feel the same way but if he will over look our mistake on finial he is the best official in the whole world.
Mom said something about a cake and eating it too, she also said something about carrying a mirror to remind me about the two face rule.
I too agree with Mr. Badger and Mr. Belarge that the code should be enforced to the letter. All too often we jump up and down, wail, cruse, cry and turn red when the code official turns us down and we know we are right. The thoughts at this time is to get this idiot fired, tarred and feathered and run out of town.
When he is right and it is going to cost us we feel the same way but if he will over look our mistake on finial he is the best official in the whole world.
Mom said something about a cake and eating it too, she also said something about carrying a mirror to remind me about the two face rule.
Re: Foyers
Things ar noticed on the finish that are not apparent on rough inspections "ALL THE TIME"
Walls are moved or created, equipment installed or added and so no. Many jurisdictions have more than one inspector and each site visit may bring a new set of eyes.
I agree with those who have defended the inspector , if work is not code compliant upon a finish inspection , the installation is not Code compliant.
Charlie
Things ar noticed on the finish that are not apparent on rough inspections "ALL THE TIME"
Walls are moved or created, equipment installed or added and so no. Many jurisdictions have more than one inspector and each site visit may bring a new set of eyes.
I agree with those who have defended the inspector , if work is not code compliant upon a finish inspection , the installation is not Code compliant.
Charlie
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Foyers
I agree with the above, but let's not lose sight of the picture here. If inspector "A" called the area a hallway when it was brought to his attention, any inspector following along behind better call it a hallway too. "Jeez, it looked more like a hall in the rough," ain't gonna cut it.
We weren't really talking about "getting away with something." A hallway 10 feet long gets one receptacle. That's not a loophole, that is 210.52(H). That's code.
I agree with the above, but let's not lose sight of the picture here. If inspector "A" called the area a hallway when it was brought to his attention, any inspector following along behind better call it a hallway too. "Jeez, it looked more like a hall in the rough," ain't gonna cut it.
We weren't really talking about "getting away with something." A hallway 10 feet long gets one receptacle. That's not a loophole, that is 210.52(H). That's code.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Foyers
However IMO we electricians are required to install to the code and if the area could be a livable space but we in haste say 'nah it's a hallway' we have to accept the consequences of are own actions. We can not fault the inspector.
IMO We have two choices;
1)Know the code inside and out so your installation conforms to the NEC and you can back that up with code sections.
2)When in doubt add an outlet, you know how much cheaper that is at rough than when you do it after the finish.
Sometimes knowing the NEC well can save you money.
George put in that narrow context I would say it would be worth some phone calls to see if something could be worked out.
However IMO we electricians are required to install to the code and if the area could be a livable space but we in haste say 'nah it's a hallway' we have to accept the consequences of are own actions. We can not fault the inspector.
IMO We have two choices;
1)Know the code inside and out so your installation conforms to the NEC and you can back that up with code sections.
2)When in doubt add an outlet, you know how much cheaper that is at rough than when you do it after the finish.
Sometimes knowing the NEC well can save you money.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Foyers
From time to time I am asked about different rooms in occupancy and how the code addresses them. It would be nice to be able to give an answer with a code reference, but as we all know this isn?t always possible.
In both ?02 and ?05 codes article 210.52 (A) states ?or similar room or area of dwelling units,? This leaves such things as Foyers and Laundry rooms not defined directly, but are they not similar to the rest of the dwelling?
210.52 (H) addresses a hall that is more than 10? long and the placement of doors as breaking a hall into sections. Here the code is perfectly clear about a hall.
I teach all my classes that a Foyer is not a hall because of it?s omission in 210.52 (H), therefore it must comply with the 6? and 2? rule. I also teach that if a laundry room is large enough to allow a person to enter to load the washer and dryer (5? x 5? or larger) then the wall opposite the equipment needs a receptacle.
From time to time I am asked about different rooms in occupancy and how the code addresses them. It would be nice to be able to give an answer with a code reference, but as we all know this isn?t always possible.
In both ?02 and ?05 codes article 210.52 (A) states ?or similar room or area of dwelling units,? This leaves such things as Foyers and Laundry rooms not defined directly, but are they not similar to the rest of the dwelling?
210.52 (H) addresses a hall that is more than 10? long and the placement of doors as breaking a hall into sections. Here the code is perfectly clear about a hall.
I teach all my classes that a Foyer is not a hall because of it?s omission in 210.52 (H), therefore it must comply with the 6? and 2? rule. I also teach that if a laundry room is large enough to allow a person to enter to load the washer and dryer (5? x 5? or larger) then the wall opposite the equipment needs a receptacle.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Foyers
Bob and Sam, I'm in total agreement.
Edit to add: 210.52(A) mentions a family room, a den, and a living room. I would be hard pressed to define the difference between these rooms. I think if laundry rooms were to meet wall space codes per this section, they would be specifically mentioned.
I guess what I'm getting at, jw, is that the only two things that count are: What is it called on the plans? And: What can you convince the AHJ it is?
You're teaching them to err on the side of safety, granted. But you're adding your own clarity where there is none, and that misleading comfort will stick in your students minds as code.
Edit to add: Are you teaching this in a classroom setting as code, or in the field as a practice? I see a distinction in this.
[ February 06, 2005, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Bob and Sam, I'm in total agreement.
Then why does the definition contain the word "hallway." Is sounds like a type of hallway to me...
Edit to add: 210.52(A) mentions a family room, a den, and a living room. I would be hard pressed to define the difference between these rooms. I think if laundry rooms were to meet wall space codes per this section, they would be specifically mentioned.
I see that halls ten feet or more in length require a receptacle (which leads to the interpretation that halls less than 10 feet long require zero). I see to find that length I measure down the center of a hall to find the length. I fail to see anything about sections, placement of doors, or what a hall looks like. I think there is no clarity, much less "perfect clarity" regarding the nature of a hallway.
I guess what I'm getting at, jw, is that the only two things that count are: What is it called on the plans? And: What can you convince the AHJ it is?
You're teaching them to err on the side of safety, granted. But you're adding your own clarity where there is none, and that misleading comfort will stick in your students minds as code.
Edit to add: Are you teaching this in a classroom setting as code, or in the field as a practice? I see a distinction in this.
[ February 06, 2005, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Foyers
When teaching a class either code class or inspectors I always quote the code as it is written. Sometimes I will quote something that I have picked up at one of the IAEI meetings that I attend. What I teach is for those who live in North Carolina and base my classes on this. I do seek advice from the Department of Insurance about things that I am not sure about.
2002 210.52 (A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3)
2005 210.52 (A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).
Take note that they both sate the same exact same thing. Pay close attention to the part that states ?or similar room or area of dwelling units,?
2002 210.52 (H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft) or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hall length shall be considered the length along the centerline of the hall without passing through a doorway.
2005 210.52 (H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft) or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hall length shall be considered the length along the centerline of the hall without passing through a doorway.
The way that I read this is a foyer is a similar room just as any other room including a laundry room that allows access to personnel. If a foyer was a hall would it not have been mentioned in 210.10 (H)?
Is not anything stated in this thread been an opinion of the one who made their post seeing that the code does not make these places clear? Yes I teach that when in doubt do what would be right until what is right has been established. Yes I do inject my opinion in every lesson I teach, but I always point out that it is my opinion and not founded on any interpretation handed down by NFPA.
edited to say sorry I missouoted the hall in my last post
[ February 06, 2005, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
When teaching a class either code class or inspectors I always quote the code as it is written. Sometimes I will quote something that I have picked up at one of the IAEI meetings that I attend. What I teach is for those who live in North Carolina and base my classes on this. I do seek advice from the Department of Insurance about things that I am not sure about.
2002 210.52 (A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3)
2005 210.52 (A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).
Take note that they both sate the same exact same thing. Pay close attention to the part that states ?or similar room or area of dwelling units,?
2002 210.52 (H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft) or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hall length shall be considered the length along the centerline of the hall without passing through a doorway.
2005 210.52 (H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft) or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hall length shall be considered the length along the centerline of the hall without passing through a doorway.
The way that I read this is a foyer is a similar room just as any other room including a laundry room that allows access to personnel. If a foyer was a hall would it not have been mentioned in 210.10 (H)?
Is not anything stated in this thread been an opinion of the one who made their post seeing that the code does not make these places clear? Yes I teach that when in doubt do what would be right until what is right has been established. Yes I do inject my opinion in every lesson I teach, but I always point out that it is my opinion and not founded on any interpretation handed down by NFPA.
edited to say sorry I missouoted the hall in my last post
[ February 06, 2005, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Foyers
Edit to add: At least I'm not opinionated.
[ February 06, 2005, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
Then we agree. That is, we may not agree that a foyer is a type of hallway, but we agree it isn't clear.
Edit to add: At least I'm not opinionated.
[ February 06, 2005, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Foyers
George thank you for at least seeing my side of this.My whole point of inspector A and inspector B or C .IMHO there has to be some type of consistency,We are required to have a set of permitted plans on site for a rough in inspection.Why so inspector A B or C can look at the floor plan and determine what constitutes a room,simular area or whatever.Now here we come to a final carpet down clean enough to eat off the floor and here comes inspector D . Nothing has been changed since rough in and he now determines that this area under a plant shelf is now low and behold a simular area
George thank you for at least seeing my side of this.My whole point of inspector A and inspector B or C .IMHO there has to be some type of consistency,We are required to have a set of permitted plans on site for a rough in inspection.Why so inspector A B or C can look at the floor plan and determine what constitutes a room,simular area or whatever.Now here we come to a final carpet down clean enough to eat off the floor and here comes inspector D . Nothing has been changed since rough in and he now determines that this area under a plant shelf is now low and behold a simular area
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Foyers
If an inspector sees a violation at finish that was missed at rough it is their obligation to bring it up. The inspector is not there to make your job easy they are their to ensure you follow the rules.
It is OUR JOB to follow the code, we are not out of the picture once the inspectors sign off.
You do understand that even once the occupancy permit is issued any code defects found down the road are still squarely the responsibility of the installer and not the inspector?
You could always find another job if you do not like the inspection process.
I am not being a wise guy at all, but this is the trade we have chosen and inspectors are part of it, some good some bad.
All of this is just an opinion and it is worth every bit you paid for it.
The point of a rough inspection is to see things that will not be visible after the drywall goes up. It does not mean anymore than that.
If an inspector sees a violation at finish that was missed at rough it is their obligation to bring it up. The inspector is not there to make your job easy they are their to ensure you follow the rules.
It is OUR JOB to follow the code, we are not out of the picture once the inspectors sign off.
You do understand that even once the occupancy permit is issued any code defects found down the road are still squarely the responsibility of the installer and not the inspector?
You could always find another job if you do not like the inspection process.
I am not being a wise guy at all, but this is the trade we have chosen and inspectors are part of it, some good some bad.
All of this is just an opinion and it is worth every bit you paid for it.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Foyers
"I am not being a wise guy at all, but this is the trade we have chosen and inspectors are part of it, some good some bad."
Bob this is quoted from your last post - of which I think we in this industry need to revise our thinking.
I don't think of us as being part of a "trade", but as " Professionals". I know most call it a trade, but our industry has changed so in the last 15-20 years that our knowledge base is such that we are professionals.
"I am not being a wise guy at all, but this is the trade we have chosen and inspectors are part of it, some good some bad."
Bob this is quoted from your last post - of which I think we in this industry need to revise our thinking.
I don't think of us as being part of a "trade", but as " Professionals". I know most call it a trade, but our industry has changed so in the last 15-20 years that our knowledge base is such that we are professionals.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Foyers
Either way is fine with me, I consider myself a professional tradesman.Originally posted by pierre:
"I don't think of us as being part of a "trade", but as " Professionals". I know most call it a trade, but our industry has changed so in the last 15-20 years that our knowledge base is such that we are professionals.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Foyers
Jeez...I consider myself a housemonkey with potential...
Maybe, the answer to this is redlining in "entrance hallway" into the plans, having Inspector A initial it. That way it is clear that it was addressed, and that the EC was concerned, and Insp. A did take a moment to look and make a judgement call.
Jeez...I consider myself a housemonkey with potential...
Maybe, the answer to this is redlining in "entrance hallway" into the plans, having Inspector A initial it. That way it is clear that it was addressed, and that the EC was concerned, and Insp. A did take a moment to look and make a judgement call.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: Foyers
I have 145 guys to oversee and when they ask questions I have the obligation to give them the correct answers.Just how am I to give them the correct answers when the inspectors that have the final say so can`t get it together.If it is a hall at rough then it`s a hall at final after all it`s the same walls that were there same area,To me it is the inspectors job to define what requires a receptacle and what doesn`t,There is alot more than what won`t be seen when the drywall is installed I try every day to comply with the rules they have but when you have two identical homes side by side and two different inspectors require two different spacing rules what`s up with that
I have 145 guys to oversee and when they ask questions I have the obligation to give them the correct answers.Just how am I to give them the correct answers when the inspectors that have the final say so can`t get it together.If it is a hall at rough then it`s a hall at final after all it`s the same walls that were there same area,To me it is the inspectors job to define what requires a receptacle and what doesn`t,There is alot more than what won`t be seen when the drywall is installed
I try every day to comply with the rules they have but when you have two identical homes side by side and two different inspectors require two different spacing rules what`s up with that
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Foyers
Entering a bed room that has a 5? path way, on the right is a bath on the left is a walk-in closet and the path way is 42? wide. There is 27? from the bedroom door and the doors for the bath and closet.
Are we required to install a receptacle on both sides of the bedroom door or does this fall under the scope of a hall?
At the NCIAEI meeting in Winston-Salem N C in November Ron Chilton Chief Electrical Inspector for the state of North Carolina says ?Yes?. I went to the front of the room straight to the panel members and drew him a picture of what I was talking about, he still said, ?Yes, one on either side.?
The point is a foyer is a room and should be treated as any other room in a dwelling. If inspector A says that I only needed ?one? then I did better than good. If inspector B says it is a room then I have everything covered.
Entering a bed room that has a 5? path way, on the right is a bath on the left is a walk-in closet and the path way is 42? wide. There is 27? from the bedroom door and the doors for the bath and closet.
Are we required to install a receptacle on both sides of the bedroom door or does this fall under the scope of a hall?
At the NCIAEI meeting in Winston-Salem N C in November Ron Chilton Chief Electrical Inspector for the state of North Carolina says ?Yes?. I went to the front of the room straight to the panel members and drew him a picture of what I was talking about, he still said, ?Yes, one on either side.?
The point is a foyer is a room and should be treated as any other room in a dwelling. If inspector A says that I only needed ?one? then I did better than good. If inspector B says it is a room then I have everything covered.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Foyers
Simply stop using the word FOYER on a print and type HALL,such an easy cure.Tell builder that halls are cheaper than foyers,he can get it fixed
Simply stop using the word FOYER on a print and type HALL,such an easy cure.Tell builder that halls are cheaper than foyers,he can get it fixed
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