Garage recpt outlets Exterior

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ritelec said:
Thank you for the link..

Doesn't quite answer it though...

the ROP seemed to be about "what if's"

From what I see of it, 210.52(G)(1) makes no mention of separate circuit to the garage inside lighting and receptacle "outlets" 15a or 20a..
seams to be "any" ole 15 or 20 amp circ... as long as it doesn't extend outside....

I'm thinking the code means outside as in you look up and see the sky, not outside the garage as anywhere else not in that area..??

?

Hmmm
somethings missing.
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from the quoted content of post 2 in that thread(I pasted it below) it seems to me that they intended to only supply outlets inside the garage with the circuit in question.

Today?s garage has gone from a simple place to park our vehicles out of the elements to locations where home do-it-yourselfers service their vehicles and even convert a portion of the garage space to serve as a workshop. The required single receptacle may be blocked by a fixed appliance or have two appliances utilizing the duplex outlet. Homeowners have resorted to running extension cords from the garage door outlet stapling the cord to the ceiling to have an additional outlet for cord and plug appliances. By requiring and additional outlet for each car space will reduce the use of extension cords being used to extend the branch circuit wiring and provide a safer environment for the homeowner.
Additionally, the panel has chosen to include new language for 2014 requiring the receptacle branch circuit in the garage to only supply outlets within the garage in an effort to recognize the possibility of EV charging (see Proposal 2-180). With that thought in mind, it makes sense to expand the requirements for receptacles in garages to provide at least one receptacle outlet in each car parking space.
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That language as used excludes anything not inside the garage IMO.
 
ok...I'm confused again....... :huh:

210.52(G)(1) doesn't say ALL of that...

what ever the intent the 4 or so lines in that article doesn't make it clear....


You would think the way laundry or kitchen circuits are worded, if the intent was to have an individual circuit for the interior of a garage, it would have been worded that way....
 
ritelec said:
ok...I'm confused again....... :huh:

210.52(G)(1) doesn't say ALL of that...

what ever the intent the 4 or so lines in that article doesn't make it clear....


You would think the way laundry or kitchen circuits are worded, if the intent was to have an individual circuit for the interior of a garage, it would have been worded that way....
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Unfortunately there is a lack of consistency with wording but saying a separate circuit is required would then limit it to one circuit-- technically.... I think you are trying to make more out of this then you need to. Think of the logic of what you are saying-- it makes no sense.
 
Okay. One or more circs. Sure they could have done a better job of it


I'm thinking of my logic.

I smell smoke
 
210.52 G 1.

If you need power in detached garage or structure, you need min one outlet inside and outside. you only need to know the outlet is for general purpose or is for specific equipment.
If it's for specific equipment don't supply any other outlet, and if not for specific equipment you can treat it as general purpose circuit 12awg max 13 outlets.
 
ritelec said:
ok...I'm confused again....... :huh:

210.52(G)(1) doesn't say ALL of that...

what ever the intent the 4 or so lines in that article doesn't make it clear....


You would think the way laundry or kitchen circuits are worded, if the intent was to have an individual circuit for the interior of a garage, it would have been worded that way....
Click to expand...
I agree the wording could use some additional attention, but their intent seems to be to not have any other outlets outside the garage on with the receptacle outlets that are in the garage. We used to have about the same thing for laundry areas - we needed a 20 amp laundry circuit but it could supply other outlets in the laundry area including lighting outlets but was not permitted to serve any outlets outside the laundry area, yet at same time the laundry lighting could be on with other circuits and did not have to be on the laundry circuit - just about same consistency of clear mud here isn't it?
 
jxofaltrds said:
If my garage ceiling light was on the garage circuit the switch for my light would:

1. Have to be in the garage

true or false?
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mjf said:
and the correct answer is???????????????
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False, all of 210.52 is about outlets and doesn't care about switches. Put a set of three ways and four ways in every room of the house to control the garage light if you want it has no impact on 210.52, however it will need AFCI protection in 2014 if switches are in areas mentioned in 210.12.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I believe that has been answered. A switch is not an outlet so it is fine to be located outside the garage.
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Disagree.

kwired said:
False, all of 210.52 is about outlets and doesn't care about switches. Put a set of three ways and four ways in every room of the house to control the garage light if you want it has no impact on 210.52, however it will need AFCI protection in 2014 if switches are in areas mentioned in 210.12.
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Was going there next (AFCI). :thumbsup:

Now my take:

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken
to supply utilization equipment.
This term is frequently misused to refer to receptacles. Although
receptacle outlets are outlets, not all outlets are receptacle outlets.
Other common examples of outlets include lighting outlets and
smoke alarm outlets.-Handbook

Device. A unit of an electrical system, other than a conductor,
that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.
Switches, circuit breakers, fuseholders, receptacles, attachment
plugs, and lampholders that distribute or control but do not consume
electrical energy are considered devices. -Handbook

Switch, General-Use Snap. A form of general-use switch constructed
so that it can be installed in device boxes or on box
covers, or otherwise used in conjunction with wiring systems
recognized by this Code.

A receptacle is just a device just as a switch. If I have a switch that controls a receptacle or a light it is still a point that takes current to utilization equipment. Because when it is off the is NO power at the two above ?outlets?.
 
jxofaltrds said:
Disagree.



Was going there next (AFCI). :thumbsup:

Now my take:

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken
to supply utilization equipment.
This term is frequently misused to refer to receptacles. Although
receptacle outlets are outlets, not all outlets are receptacle outlets.
Other common examples of outlets include lighting outlets and
smoke alarm outlets.-Handbook

Device. A unit of an electrical system, other than a conductor,
that carries or controls electric energy as its principal function.
Switches, circuit breakers, fuseholders, receptacles, attachment
plugs, and lampholders that distribute or control but do not consume
electrical energy are considered devices. -Handbook

Switch, General-Use Snap. A form of general-use switch constructed
so that it can be installed in device boxes or on box
covers, or otherwise used in conjunction with wiring systems
recognized by this Code.

A receptacle is just a device just as a switch. If I have a switch that controls a receptacle or a light it is still a point that takes current to utilization equipment. Because when it is off the is NO power at the two above ?outlets?.
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Other aspects come into the picture - like the AFCI, but otherwise the question was about required outlets in 210.52.
 
kwired said:
Other aspects come into the picture - like the AFCI, but otherwise the question was about required outlets in 210.52.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

(1) Garages. In each attached garage and in each detached
garage with electric power. The branch circuit supplying this
receptacle(s) shall not supply outlets outside of the garage. At
least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for each car space.

If the garage light is on this circuit the switch has to be 'in' the garage. Just like coach lights could not be on that circuit.
 
To me, "taken to supply utilization equipment" clearly refers to the point at which said current leaves the building wiring system. It does not apply to devices like switches where both sides are still part of the building wiring system.
For hard wired utilization equipment the outlet could be the last j-box where wires supplied with the equipment are attached. Or it could be a terminal strip or junction box inside the equipment, if no factory supplied conductors leave the equipment.
 
GoldDigger said:
To me, "taken to supply utilization equipment" clearly refers to the point at which said current leaves the building wiring system. It does not apply to devices like switches where both sides are still part of the building wiring system.
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When a common snap switch is used as a "Controller" it turns something (say a luminaire) on and off, and that "something" is Utilization Equipment. The current passing through the switch, when it is on, is being "taken to supply utilization equipment". The real sticking point, for me, is that the inside of the switch, that is, inside the controller, the wiring between the terminals connected to the Premises Wiring (System) is defined as "not included" in the Premises Wiring (System). Current taken to supply Utilization Equipment has to leave the Premises Wiring (System) in order to travel within the simple snap switch used as a Controller. That's an Outlet.

As an aside, I'm glad my Minnesota State Electrical AHJ has made the Garage question easy for me by allowing me to supply receptacles, lights and switches on the outside of the outside walls of a garage off of the interior garage receptacle circuit.
 
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al hildenbrand said:
When a common snap switch is used as a "Controller" it turns something (say a luminaire) on and off, and that "something" is Utilization Equipment. The current passing through the switch, when it is on, is being "taken to supply utilization equipment". The real sticking point, for me, is that the inside of the switch, that is, inside the controller, the wiring between the terminals connected to the Premises Wiring (System) is defined as "not included" in the Premises Wiring (System). Current taken to supply Utilization Equipment has to leave the Premises Wiring (System) in order to travel within the simple snap switch used as a Controller. That's an Outlet.
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So, you would consider the electric meter, and all main, feeder and branch breakers to be outlets too?
You can attempt an argument based on the exact definitions of words defined in the Code or in dictionaries, but I do not see them passing the common sense test. In which case either your interpretation is flawed or the Code language needs to be improved. :)
Oh, and in the case of a snap switch you would have both an outlet and an inlet at that point since the current goes back into the building wiring rather than going directly to the utilization equipment.
 
GoldDigger said:
in the case of a snap switch you would have both an outlet and an inlet
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Yup.

GoldDigger said:
So, you would consider the electric meter, and all main, feeder and branch breakers to be outlets too?
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I'd have to understand why you include electric meters, which I presume you to mean the power company's cash register, as something that is "not included" in the Premises Wiring (System). My initial inclination is that the poco meter is not included in the list in the last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System).

But switches, yes, . . . breakers are used as controllers, and the little ones, 15 & 20 amp single poles are intended and labeled for switching duty (SWD), so yes.

As for common sense. . . when you have your electrical inspection of the brand new Premises Wiring (System) that you have just installed in a new structure, is your inspector on the hook to inspect and approve the "wiring internal to controllers" like snap switches or molded case circuit breakers? To me, the common sense answer is "No." That their guts are directly regulated by the standards that the manufacturer complies with, and not, directly, by the National Electrical Code. The same is true of the Utilization Equipment.
 
GoldDigger said:
Which does not make switches themselves necessarily Utilization Equipment.
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Switches don't have to be Utilization Equipment in order to have an outlet present.

A Receptacle Outlet is NOT Utilization Equipment, yet there IS an Outlet there.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Yup.



I'd have to understand why you include electric meters, which I presume you to mean the power company's cash register, as something that is "not included" in the Premises Wiring (System). My initial inclination is that the poco meter is not included in the list in the last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System).

But switches, yes, . . . breakers are used as controllers, and the little ones, 15 & 20 amp single poles are intended and labeled for switching duty (SWD), so yes.

As for common sense. . . when you have your electrical inspection of the brand new Premises Wiring (System) that you have just installed in a new structure, is your inspector on the hook to inspect and approve the "wiring internal to controllers" like snap switches or molded case circuit breakers? To me, the common sense answer is "No." That their guts are directly regulated by the standards that the manufacturer complies with, and not, directly, by the National Electrical Code. The same is true of the Utilization Equipment.
Click to expand...


According to the above referenced in red, and following the train of thought, the breaker for the circuit supplying the garage outlet(s) must also be located in the garage. So every garage not housing a main panel will now be required to have a "sub" panel installed? (except, for lucky you, whose state used common sense and simply and clearly clarified the intent of the code).
 
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