Garage recpt outlets Exterior

[ActionDave]

So it is only an outlet if I have a receptacle or light installed.

Then I can run a:

Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branchless circuit that consists
of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage
between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal volt-
age between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit
and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of
the system.

to a bedroom then feed my garage and only have to AFCI protect the bedroom half of the circuit

Sure. You just need a handle tie on the breakers.

 

[kwired]

So it is only an outlet if I have a receptacle or light installed.

Then I can run a:

Branch Circuit, Multiwire. A branch circuit that consists
of two or more ungrounded conductors that have a voltage
between them, and a grounded conductor that has equal volt-
age between it and each ungrounded conductor of the circuit
and that is connected to the neutral or grounded conductor of
the system.

to a bedroom then feed my garage and only have to AFCI protect the bedroom half of the circuit

Yes, but you may have a hard time finding AFCI that actually works for that application. Maybe the GE models that don't have ground fault function would work. I have never even seen one, GE is not all that common around here.

 

[kwired]

You can ask an identical question about a receptacle that has nothing plugged in. As with a "simple snap switch used as a controller", a receptacle has definitions in Article 100.
I contend that the last sentence of Premises Wiring (System), Controller, Outlet and 404.14 interlock to show that there is an outlet internal to a simple snap switch used as a controller.

I guess a snap switch can be considered a disconnecting means - but otherwise aren't they intended to control something?

Dennis, you know that is incomplete. If voltage were just what was controlled, there would be no need for current ratings on a switch. A switch has to allow current, it has to "control" current also. A simple snap switch, in no way, is Utilization Equipment, yet, when ON "current taken to supply utilization equipment" passes through the switch. The key to my understanding, IMO, is that the "wiring internal to the controller" is defined as not part of the Premises Wiring (System) by the very definition of Premises Wiring (System). The "current taken to supply utilization equipment" at the "point on the wiring system" where the current enters the internal wiring of the snap switch is where the current LEAVES the Premises Wiring (System).

You can say many of same things but replace "switch" with conductor, contactor, relay, circuit breaker, fuse, does that mean those items are outlets as well?

I agree with you, Dennis. "A switch is not an outlet." But, I am saying "An outlet occurs in a switch used as a controller." Switch used as disconnecting means may possibly be considered to be location of the "outlet" but the switch itself may or may not actually be the outlet.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The part of your argument I don't get is the idea that the current through the switch is "taken to supply utilization equipment". If ones accepts the idea that the switch as controller is not part of the premises wiring system, then the current path is:

Premising Wiring -> Controller -> Premises Wiring -> Utilization Equipment

I would think that only the second time that the current is leaving the Premises Wiring is the current "taken to supply utilization equipment".

Cheers, Wayne

Thanks Wayne,

This is one of the keys to understanding where old memes get in the way. When I first laid this out back in 2004, talking about two outlets in series (not in parallel, but in series) with each other was hard to talk about. Since then, we have had 400.7(A)(11) added to the Code. Look at the IAEI illustration and labeling of the outlets below. The outlet behind the flat screen and the outlet below left, just above the baseboard, are in series with each other.

The Article 100 Definition has nothing in it that says two outlets (or more) must never be in series.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I agree with you, Dennis. "A switch is not an outlet." But, I am saying "An outlet occurs in a switch used as a controller."

Switch used as disconnecting means may possibly be considered to be location of the "outlet" but the switch itself may or may not actually be the outlet.

You are missing the point, the internal wiring of a simple snap switch, used as a Controller, is defined and "not included" in the Premises Wiring (System) by the Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System). The point on the wiring system where the current taken to supply utilization equipment leaves the wiring system to go through the wiring internal to the simple snap switch is always an outlet as long as the simple snap switch is configured with the wiring system as a "controller."

Again I say clearly and unambiguously, "A switch is not an outlet." And, "An outlet occurs in a switch used as a controller."

 

[roger]

Again I say clearly and unambiguously, "A switch is not an outlet." And, "An outlet occurs in a switch used as a controller."

And I will follow with, "a wire nut is an outlet too when making a circuit" as it is used as a controller.

Hello Al, this makes me feel young

Roger

 

[ritelec]

Wow that was something else :- ) Talk about thinking "outside" the box.

So you install this dedicated outlet circuit to the inside of the garage

The home owner uses this garage for storage so you can't get a car in there or even reach a receptacle outlet to stick an extension cord in.

The vehicle is parked "outside" and any needed power is obtained from an external receptacle fed from a different circuit or a screw in socket receptacle screwed into an exterior light outlet


Interesting read. Thank you !

 

[kwired]

Wow that was something else :- ) Talk about thinking "outside" the box.

So you install this dedicated outlet circuit to the inside of the garage

The home owner uses this garage for storage so you can't get a car in there or even reach a receptacle outlet to stick an extension cord in.

The vehicle is parked "outside" and any needed power is obtained from an external receptacle fed from a different circuit or a screw in socket receptacle screwed into an exterior light outlet


Interesting read. Thank you !

Now you are talking about what happens in the real world.

 

[wwhitney]

The Article 100 Definition has nothing in it that says two outlets (or more) must never be in series.

OK, I agree, as per your 400.7(A)(11) example. But that still doesn't mean that every time current leaves the Premises Wiring System you have an outlet. Why do you feel that taking current from the Premises Wiring System to feed a controller is taking current "to supply utilization equipment", when a controller is not utilization equipment?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[kwired]

I didn't think the NEC definition of outlet was that confusing before this thread, now I am starting to get the opinion it needs major wordsmithing to clarify what the definition actually is intended to mean. I still get the impression that "at which current is taken" is not at switches but rather a point near the utilization equipment. Some say where we transition from premises wiring to utilization equipment - yet those words are not in the definition, but come close to what my understanding always has been. IMO some utilization equipment is part of the premises wiring to some extent so that isn't exactly a great explanation either. I have often said where there is an outlet there is a load that is supplied somewhere nearby, or something to that effect, or in the case of the receptacle outlet it isn't always quite that way but is more of a transition between premises wiring and non premises wiring and/or utilization equipment.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Why do you feel that taking current from the Premises Wiring System to feed a controller is taking current "to supply utilization equipment", when a controller is not utilization equipment?

My answer lies in why I deliberately always describe the switch as a simple snap switch. The simple snap switch cannot be fed current without utilization equipment taking the current. The only current passing through the inside of the snap switch used as controller is whatever the utilization equipment dictates. The current passing inside the switch is not "in addition to" the current in the utilization equipment. .one doesn't add the two currents together to get the total current in the circuit. . . .the current in the switch IS the current in the utilization equipment. If the utilization equipment doesn't take current, there is no current in the snap switch.

So, at the connection of the Premises Wiring to the snap switch terminals, there is a point at which utilization equipment current is taken out of the wiring system. . . that is the very definition of the Article 100 term Outlet.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I didn't think the NEC definition of outlet was that confusing before this thread, . . .

I well remember, in the time leading up to the "Big Oops," thread, that I was struggling, in threads on this Forum, with why various things like pilot light switches, or neutraled motion sensors, were not considered as utilization equipment. At one point I realized that it all boiled down to the understandings good electricians had about the simple term "Outlet". And then I was off and running, testing everyone and being tested by most everyone.

"Outlet" is an extremely old term and, in spite of time and everything that has happened, it is, basically, unaltered from the original basic wording. I go into this in the summary at my link, above, in this post.

 

[wwhitney]

So, at the connection of the Premises Wiring to the snap switch terminals, there is a point at which utilization equipment current is taken out of the wiring system. . . that is the very definition of the Article 100 term Outlet.

I still see a few possible holes in the chain of reasoning:

Does a snap switch have any internal wiring? If not, then the entire snap switch is part of the Premises Wiring System. Wiring doesn't have an Article 100 definition, but commonly means wires.

The outlet definition reads ". . . at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." I suggest that "taken to supply" refers to the reason the current is taken from the Premises Wiring System. And further that only at the connection between the Premises Wiring System and the utilization equipment is the current "taken to supply". At the snap switch the current is "taken" to control the utilization equipment.

Lastly, do you really want a definition of outlet where whether a snap switch is an outlet depends on what is downstream of the outlet? E.g. if there is an isolation transformer or relay, the current through the snap switch is not supplying the utilization equipment, so it is not an outlet.

Cheers,
Wayne

 

[jxofaltrds]

I well remember, in the time leading up to the "Big Oops," thread, that I was struggling, in threads on this Forum, with why various things like pilot light switches, or neutraled motion sensors, were not considered as utilization equipment. At one point I realized that it all boiled down to the understandings good electricians had about the simple term "Outlet". And then I was off and running, testing everyone and being tested by most everyone.

"Outlet" is an extremely old term and, in spite of time and everything that has happened, it is, basically, unaltered from the original basic wording. I go into this in the summary at my link, above, in this post.

Nice thread.

Step back in time when we hardwired a disposal. Is the disposal the outlet since a switch is not an outlet? Or are there no outlets on this circuit? :jawdrop:

 

[al hildenbrand]

Does a snap switch have any internal wiring? If not, then the entire snap switch is part of the Premises Wiring System. Wiring doesn't have an Article 100 definition, but commonly means wires.

"Wiring" is a single word term. It is used in the body of the NEC over 750 times, yet it is not given as an entry in Article 100 Definitions. The first place we are to look, when this is the case, for a definition of the term, is any applicable technical dictionary.

My copy of the IEEE Standard Dictionary of Electrical and Electronic Terms does not include "wiring".

My copy of the IEEE Standard Dictionary of Electrical and Electronic Terms does include "wire" and it makes an interesting statement:

If a wire is covered with insulation, it is properly called an insulated wire: while primarily the term wire refers to the metal, nevertheless when the context shows that the wire is insulated, the term wire will be understood to include the insulation.

To carry the idea of "wire" a little further, consider "busway." Article 368 describes Busway and it is included in Chapter 3 of the NEC. And Chapter 3 is Wiring Methods. Busway is defined:

368.2 Definition.
Busway. A grounded metal enclosure containing factory mounted, bare or insulated conductors, which are usually copper or aluminum bars, rods, or tubes.

Ah, but you might say: "Wiring Method" is a two word term, and it is not defined either.

So, let's turn back to Premises Wiring (System)'s definition:

Premises Wiring (System). Interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed. This includes (a) wiring from the service point or power source to the outlets or (b) wiring from and including the power source to the outlets where there is no service point.
Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires, motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.

Note that I did not highlight "wiring devices". I consider that a two word term to mean "devices". A simple snap switch is included as wiring. . . and, obviously, current travels through the conductors inside a simple snap switch. . . do those snap switch internal conductors look like THHN? No. With busway as a guide, I don't think they have to, to be understood as wiring.

The really interesting, challenging, mind bending hook comes in that last sentence of the definition of Premises Wiring (System). . . "Such wiring does not include wiring internal to . . . controllers. . . " (this is not about my "wanting", rather, it is about what I read in the words of the NEC.

 

[al hildenbrand]

And I will follow with, "a wire nut is an outlet too when making a circuit" as it is used as a controller.

Since this thread is about 210.52(G)(1), I have to ask, "Where does a dwelling occupant use a wirenut to control utilization equipment in a garage?"

Step back in time when we hardwired a disposal. Is the disposal the outlet since a switch is not an outlet? Or are there no outlets on this circuit?

The hard wired disposal is an example of the wiring method of the Premises Wiring (System) ending in the disposal's included junction box, where the Premises Wiring (System) conductors are connected to the internal conductors of the disposal. The disposal, and its internal wiring are the utilization equipment. When the disposal is turned on by the counter backsplash snap switch, the disposal "takes" current at the wirenut connection and that is the very definition of outlet. The snap switch is a controller, so, I submit, an outlet occurs in the snap switch as well.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I look at it this way. If the jb does not have the means to allow power to be taken into the room at that point then IMO, it is not an outlet. Of course the gray area are the lighted switches.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I look at it this way. If the jb does not have the means to allow power to be taken into the room at that point then IMO, it is not an outlet. Of course the gray area are the lighted switches.

If that were the ONLY case, then how could an outlet supplying an outlet be allowed by 400.7(A)(11)? Dennis, I think you have to show that two outlets CAN'T be in series with the text of the Code. I believe you can't, as I believe the Code is silent about this.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I look at it this way. If the jb does not have the means to allow power to be taken into the room at that point then IMO, it is not an outlet. Of course the gray area are the lighted switches.

The Definition of outlet has NOTHING in it about power. Only current. This is, in my humble opinion, the most distracting of the popular memes.

We KNOW that the Utilization Equipment requires power, but that is the red monkey that we can't stop fixating on.

 

[iwire]

Truly mind bending how much time is being put into this.

Hard to believe wiring is still being done everyday with this major issue unsolved.