Garage recpt outlets Exterior

[al hildenbrand]

This is an 'outlet'.

View attachment 12513

I could put a blank cover on this and it is still an outlet.

An outlet is not always the last point on any wiring system.

This, to me, is a junction box with conductors dead ending in it. The ability in the future to configure it differently does not govern what it is now.

There is no supply-to-load complete circuit, and/or, there is no defined outlet such as a receptacle device, nor is there a connection of the Branch Circuit Conductors to the conductors of Utilization Equipment.

This is, as shown, merely a means to hold the end of a cable in an approved manner.

 

[al hildenbrand]

An outlet is not always the last point on any wiring system.

Please give examples of the Premises Wiring (System) extending beyond the Outlet.

 

[jxofaltrds]

This, to me, is a junction box with conductors dead ending in it. The ability in the future to configure it differently does not govern what it is now.

There is no supply-to-load complete circuit, and/or, there is no defined outlet such as a receptacle device, nor is there a connection of the Branch Circuit Conductors to the conductors of Utilization Equipment.

This is, as shown, merely a means to hold the end of a cable in an approved manner.

Where does it says that anything has to be connected to be a outlet?

So if I remove a receptacle the 'box' is not longer an outlet?

Does a blank face on a ceiling fan rough in make it not an outlet?

If I ran a new circuit to a bedroom and put a blank cover on it, it doesn't need AFCI protection?

Please give examples of the Premises Wiring (System) extending beyond the Outlet.

Did not mean to imply that,

 

[wwhitney]

Give examples of the Premises Wiring (System) continuing AFTER the Outlet, please.

Any time you have two outlets in series you have the Premises Wiring (System) continuing after the outlet. If we are to believe a snap switch as controller is an outlet, then that is one example.

My definition of "taken to supply" as you name it, is that it is the "point" which is on the boundary between Premises Wiring (System) and not Premises Wiring (System). How you can conflate that into the "all wiring is an outlet" characterization escapes me.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Please point out the flaw in the following argument:

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Consider your simple example of a service, an OCPD, a snap switch, and a piece of utilization equipment (load). The load is what determines the current in the circuit, so the current at any point is "taken to supply the utilization equipment". So every point in the circuit is an outlet.

If your response is "an outlet can only occur at the boundary of the premises wiring system", where does it say that? The definition of Outlet doesn't say "taken out".

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

How do you differentiate manufactured cable such as AC or MC with conductors inside it as "wiring" (may I assume you do?) as different from the manufactured bussway with conductors inside of it to actually say that it is NOT a form of "wiring"?

Because in one case the conductors are wires, while in another they are busbars, not wires?

What about Article 393, another Chapter 3 "Wiring" Method?

Sounds like non-wire conductors to me.

Is a ground rod wiring? It is a conductor to earth.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

Where does it says that anything has to be connected to be a outlet?

The definition of Receptacle Outlet requires a receptacle.

So if I remove a receptacle the 'box' is not longer an outlet?

Yes, according to the definition of Receptacle Outlet.

Does a blank face on a ceiling fan rough in make it not an outlet?

You are correct, if this is a Lighting Outlet, the fixture need not be present.

If I ran a new circuit to a bedroom and put a blank cover on it, it doesn't need AFCI protection?

If the box that the conductors is in does not contain an Outlet or a Device, then, by 210.12(A), no. At this point, Junction Boxes are not required to be AFCI protected, regardless of location, IMO.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Any time you have two outlets in series you have the Premises Wiring (System) continuing after the outlet. If we are to believe a snap switch as controller is an outlet, then that is one example.



Perhaps I wasn't clear. Please point out the flaw in the following argument:

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Consider your simple example of a service, an OCPD, a snap switch, and a piece of utilization equipment (load). The load is what determines the current in the circuit, so the current at any point is "taken to supply the utilization equipment". So every point in the circuit is an outlet.

If your response is "an outlet can only occur at the boundary of the premises wiring system", where does it say that? The definition of Outlet doesn't say "taken out".

Cheers, Wayne

The boundary is dead air.

An outlet is a "point" on the system.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Because in one case the conductors are wires, while in another they are busbars, not wires?

Sounds like non-wire conductors to me.

Is a ground rod wiring? It is a conductor to earth.

What's the matter with a Ground Rod? It's round and straight. It can be bent to shapes. What definition says it is NOT a wire. How can it be differentiated, really, from #1 or #0 solid? AND, be careful, you are conflating "wire" and "wiring". They are very different.

 

[wwhitney]

You are correct, if this is a Lighting Outlet, the fixture need not be present.

This is the common wisdom, but it doesn't meet the definition of Outlet. I looked for language specific to Lighting Outlet that would allow the fixture to be absent, and I couldn't find it. Looks like a logical flaw in the NEC.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jxofaltrds]

The definition of Receptacle Outlet requires a receptacle.



Yes, according to the definition of Receptacle Outlet.



You are correct, if this is a Lighting Outlet, the fixture need not be present.



If the box that the conductors is in does not contain an Outlet or a Device, then, by 210.12(A), no. At this point, Junction Boxes are not required to be AFCI protected, regardless of location, IMO.

Since junction boxes are not defined they are outlets IMHO.

From the non-enforceable handbook.



What? A concealed outlet? No receptacle? No light? No switch? How can this be?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Since junction boxes are not defined they are outlets IMHO.

From the non-enforceable handbook.

View attachment 12518

What? A concealed outlet? No receptacle? No light? No switch? How can this be?

It is concealed but access is need and then it is no different than a jb with utilization equipment attached. Same as fixture wire going to the socket on any lighting outlet

 

[wwhitney]

What's the matter with a Ground Rod? It's round and straight. It can be bent to shapes. What definition says it is NOT a wire. How can it be differentiated, really, from #1 or #0 solid?

A really good question. Yield strength? Ability of a normal person to bend it by hand? Intended to be bent as part of its use? I'm not sure, but I like the last one best so far.

AND, be careful, you are conflating "wire" and "wiring". They are very different.

Actually, that is precisely what we are discussing, we can't agree on a definition of wiring. Absent specific language clarifying this, I am sticking to the perhaps naive idea that wiring should contain wires.

From your point view, is every conductor wiring? Or are there conductors that aren't wiring?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

The boundary is dead air.

No, it is also a legal boundary between NEC and the Premises Wiring (System) and the Utilization Equipment conductors and the standard that regulate the manufacturer.

It may be dead air in the case of an unused receptacle outlet, hence the importance of the defining the receptacle as an Outlet.

But is may be the Premises Wiring (System) conductor wirenutted to the Utilization Equipment conductor, and there is no open air. . . just electrical continuity and conductors in contact, but very different rules and regulations on either side of the wirenut.

 

[al hildenbrand]

If your response is "an outlet can only occur at the boundary of the premises wiring system", where does it say that? The definition of Outlet doesn't say "taken out".

Where does it say that any where the Utilization Equipment is flowing it is "taken"? This is the verbal trickery. The Definition of Outlet only uses the word "taken", it doesn't say "taken from". You want to have the current only "taken from" the point at which UE is physically connected. . . but it doesn't say that.

I can point to another situation just like the legal boundary between NEC regulation and manufacturer regulation where the current crosses. That is the difference.

 

[jxofaltrds]

It is concealed but access is need and then it is no different than a jb with utilization equipment attached. Same as fixture wire going to the socket on any lighting outlet

So why when I put a switch there everyone says that it is no longer an outlet?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Since junction boxes are not defined they are outlets IMHO.

From the non-enforceable handbook.

View attachment 12518

You have an appliance connected, presumably. Who made the whip? If the electrician field assembled the whip, then this is ONLY a junction box, and there is no outlet.

If this is a manufacturer whip supplied as part of the appliance, then there is an Outlet at the wirenut splices of the Appliance conductors from the appliance whip to the Branch Circuit conductors.

If this is yet something else, you will have to give me a description, because it may be some other configuration that I have not just listed.

 

[jxofaltrds]

You have an appliance connected, presumably. Who made the whip? If the electrician field assembled the whip, then this is ONLY a junction box, and there is no outlet.

If this is a manufacturer whip supplied as part of the appliance, then there is an Outlet at the wirenut splices of the Appliance conductors from the appliance whip to the Branch Circuit conductors.

If this is yet something else, you will have to give me a description, because it may be some other configuration that I have not just listed.

Guess these aren't outlets either!



If the handbook shows me what an outlet box looks like do I just ignore it?

Edit. If you are not using it for an outlet are you violating the listing?

 

[wwhitney]

Where does it say that any where the Utilization Equipment is flowing it is "taken"? This is the verbal trickery. The Definition of Outlet only uses the word "taken", it doesn't say "taken from". You want to have the current only "taken from" the point at which UE is physically connected. . . but it doesn't say that.

So are you saying the word "taken" implies a boundary? Take can mean to convey, the pipe takes water from point A to supply point B.

My point about "every point is an outlet" is that while I agree that the intention is that an outlet occurs at the boundary of the Premises Wiring System, the only language that in the NEC that specifies this is the "taken to supply utilization equipment" language. I view this as meaning a direct connection. I don't see how you can get to a broader meaning of "taken to supply" that includes the snap switch without getting so broad as to include all of the premises wiring.

I can point to another situation just like the legal boundary between NEC regulation and manufacturer regulation where the current crosses. That is the difference.

That legal boundary doesn't exist at the switch, only at the direct connection to the Utilization Equipment.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

A really good question. Yield strength? Ability of a normal person to bend it by hand? Intended to be bent as part of its use? I'm not sure, but I like the last one best so far.

The "wire" could be #0 HARD DRAWN. That's REAL (although rare) wire. . . bend that? Give me my spinach, please.

Actually, that is precisely what we are discussing, we can't agree on a definition of wiring. Absent specific language clarifying this, I am sticking to the perhaps naive idea that wiring should contain wires.

From your point view, is every conductor wiring? Or are there conductors that aren't wiring?

Inside the Premises Wiring (System), conductors, regardless of their shape, and the assembly that is a complete system is the Premises Wiring (System).

I go to a building and I install "??????" What? You guessed it: Wiring. Do I need to list the parts to my customers (remember, you are defending from the general dictionary)? No, because they KNOW what the word "wiring" means: a complete system that gives them power and light.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I view this as meaning a direct connection. I don't see how you can get to a broader meaning of "taken to supply" that includes the snap switch without getting so broad as to include all of the premises wiring.

I get, totally, that you want taking to ONLY be at the direct connection. But, that, too, is not limited by the way "taken" sits in context, otherwise it simply would not be possible for 400.7(A)(11) to be in the Code.

That legal boundary doesn't exist at the switch, only at the direct connection to the Utilization Equipment

But, YES, it does. Even the NEC tells you it is not part of the wiring system. And your inspector doesn't open the switch to examine it's insides because it is manufactured and regulated by other laws. You don't "assemble" the switch, you only connect to it.