Garage recpt outlets Exterior

[wwhitney]

So, let's turn back to Premises Wiring (System)'s definition [. . .] Note that I did not highlight "wiring devices". I consider that a two word term to mean "devices". A simple snap switch is included as wiring. . .

Wait, that's a leap . . . the snap switch is part of the Premises Wiring System, but that doesn't mean that it's wiring.

and, obviously, current travels through the conductors inside a simple snap switch. . . do those snap switch internal conductors look like THHN? No. With busway as a guide, I don't think they have to, to be understood as wiring.

Busways are conductors, but the only evidence you cite that they are wiring is the title of Chapter 3. I think that is a stretch and most would consider busways to be conductors that aren't wiring. Likewise for the internal conductors of a snap switch.

What about the "taken to supply" argument?

BTW, I think you argument works if just 2 words were changed in the NEC definitions: in Premises Wiring System, if "does not include wiring internal" were "does not include conductors internal"; and in Outlet, if "taken to supply" were "taken and supplies". But that's not how the definitions read.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

Hard to believe wiring is still being done everyday with this major issue unsolved.

[laughing ] out loud [/laughing ]

 

[jxofaltrds]

This is an 'outlet'.

 

[kwired]

Since this thread is about 210.52(G)(1), I have to ask, "Where does a dwelling occupant use a wirenut to control utilization equipment in a garage?"



The hard wired disposal is an example of the wiring method of the Premises Wiring (System) ending in the disposal's included junction box, where the Premises Wiring (System) conductors are connected to the internal conductors of the disposal. The disposal, and its internal wiring are the utilization equipment. When the disposal is turned on by the counter backsplash snap switch, the disposal "takes" current at the wirenut connection and that is the very definition of outlet. The snap switch is a controller, so, I submit, an outlet occurs in the snap switch as well.

I disagree - that switch simply conveys the current to the utilization equipment just like the conductors do. Only difference is it has an intentional contact point for the purpose of controlling that current. The utilization equipment is what takes and uses the current to do something useful with it.

We can have cord and plug connected equipment that also has a switch within the utilization equipment, now where is the outlet for that utilization equipment? At the receptacle, at the switch that is part of the utilization equipment? Both?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Wait, that's a leap . . . the snap switch is part of the Premises Wiring System, but that doesn't mean that it's wiring.

Busways are conductors, but the only evidence you cite that they are wiring is the title of Chapter 3. I think that is a stretch and most would consider busways to be conductors that aren't wiring. Likewise for the internal conductors of a snap switch.

OK. Give me one Code citation, or technical dictionary citation to support your opinion

 

[al hildenbrand]

What about the "taken to supply" argument?

The outlet definition reads ". . . at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." I suggest that "taken to supply" refers to the reason the current is taken from the Premises Wiring System. And further that only at the connection between the Premises Wiring System and the utilization equipment is the current "taken to supply". At the snap switch the current is "taken" to control the utilization equipment.

I like the turn of phrase "At the snap switch the current is "taken" to control the utilization equipment," but the only thing, in the simple snap switch, that determines the current is the electrical characteristics of the Utilization Equipment. The simple snap switch, in its governing of the electrical energy delivered to the apparatus to which it is connected, cannot TAKE electrical energy for governing because it is NOT electrically active (which is the reason I keep this about a "simple snap switch" -- the mechanical operation of the toggle by a person is the source of the energy to GOVERN, or "control").

Controller. A device or group of devices that serves to govern, in some predetermined manner, the electric power delivered to the apparatus to which it is connected.

 

[kwired]

This is an 'outlet'.

View attachment 12513

I agree - unless the conductors are connected at other end of cable as a switch loop only and are not capable of being extended from that point to deliver voltage directly to utilization equipment, in that case the outlet is at the other end of the switched conductor someplace.

 

[wwhitney]

I like the turn of phrase "At the snap switch the current is "taken" to control the utilization equipment," but the only thing, in the simple snap switch, that determines the current is the electrical characteristics of the Utilization Equipment. The simple snap switch, in its governing of the electrical energy delivered to the apparatus to which it is connected, cannot TAKE electrical energy for governing because it is NOT electrically active (which is the reason I keep this about a "simple snap switch" -- the mechanical operation of the toggle by a person is the source of the energy to GOVERN, or "control").

This "is taken" language is quite vague. Who or what is doing the taking? I would lean towards the electrician who is doing the wiring. In which case the "taking" at the switch is for reasons of control, and the taking at the outlet just before the utilization equipment is for reasons of supply.

Also, if the term "taken to supply" means something broader than the direct connection to the Utilization Equipment, how do you limit that expansion of meaning to only the upstream switch? The only thing that differentiates the switch from the rest of the upstream circuit is that it is outside the Premises Wiring System (assuming, for the moment, that it has internal wiring). But nothing in the definition of Outlet directly says that the outlet point has to be on the boundary of the Premises Wiring System, the only limiter is "taken to supply". [The definition does not say "taken out".] If current through the switch is "taken to supply" the Utilization Equipment, then so is current through all the upstream wiring, and every point on the circuit is an outlet. This is clearly nonsensical, and so "taken to supply" must mean a direct connection.

As to the definition of wiring, I unfortunately don't have access to any technical dictionaries. But every non technical dictionary I consulted for a definition of wiring agreed that it has to do with wires. So no wires inside a snap switch = no wiring internal to a snap switch.

Cheers,
Wayne

 

[ActionDave]

.....If current through the switch is "taken to supply" the Utilization Equipment, then so is current through all the upstream wiring, and every point on the circuit is an outlet. This is clearly nonsensical, .......

Seals the deal for me. Argument is over. I'm going back to bed.

 

[al hildenbrand]

We can have cord and plug connected equipment that also has a switch within the utilization equipment, now where is the outlet for that utilization equipment? At the receptacle, at the switch that is part of the utilization equipment? Both?

This question, in my opinion, is where a fuller understanding of "outlet" helps. The cord and plug equipment that also has a switch within the utilization equipment is, if not site assembled by the electrician as a one-off, is made by a manufacturer under rules and standards that are not the NEC alone. The definition of Premises Wiring (System) tells us the wiring internal to appliances is NOT part of the wiring system.

Appliance. Utilization equipment, generally other than industrial, that is normally built in standardized sizes or types and is installed or connected as a unit to perform one or more functions such as clothes washing, air conditioning, food mixing, deep frying, and so forth.

So the internal-to-utilization-equipment switch is after the outlet which is the boundary of the Premises Wiring (System).

The Outlet is the point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. The current taken crosses the boundary of the Premises Wiring (System) at the Outlet and continues on in wiring that is not Premises Wiring (System). Nothing in the Code prevents an outlet in series with one or more outlets, and nothing says we pay any attention to voltage or power. . . ONLY current, when considering an Outlet.

A boundary between Premises Wiring (System) and not Premises Wiring (System) is defined between the conductors attached to the terminals of a simple snap switch. The only current that can flow in a switch used as a controller for Utilization Equipment is the current taken by the Utilization Equipment. The current crossing the boundary to the wiring internal to the simple snap switch is word for word the definition of an outlet when the simple snap switch is used as a controller.

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . . if the term "taken to supply" means something broader than the direct connection to the Utilization Equipment, how do you limit that expansion of meaning to only the upstream switch? The only thing that differentiates the switch from the rest of the upstream circuit is that it is outside the Premises Wiring System (assuming, for the moment, that it has internal wiring). But nothing in the definition of Outlet directly says that the outlet point has to be on the boundary of the Premises Wiring System, the only limiter is "taken to supply".

Sure it does:

Premises Wiring (System). Interior and exterior wiring, including power, lighting, control, and signal circuit wiring together with all their associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices, both permanently and temporarily installed. This includes (a) wiring from the service point or power source to the outlets or (b) wiring from and including the power source to the outlets where there is no service point.

Such wiring does not include wiring internal to appliances, luminaires, motors, controllers, motor control centers, and similar equipment.

It is NOT "to the utilization equipment".

 

[al hildenbrand]

If current through the switch is "taken to supply" the Utilization Equipment, then so is current through all the upstream wiring, and every point on the circuit is an outlet.

This is one of the keys to understanding the point I am making. Imagine a PoCo secondary supply transformer connected to a Premises Wiring (System) that has a single piece of Utilization Equipment. There is a single circuit, and let's put a simple snap switch in as a controller of the Utilization Equipment. When the UE is ON are there different currents in the single circuit? No. There is only one current of a single magnitude and that is the current taken to supply the UE. If the simple snap switch is used to control the UE, the control is effected by outside mechanical force and NO additional current is taken for control.

This is clearly nonsensical, and so "taken to supply" must mean a direct connection.

 

[al hildenbrand]

As to the definition of wiring, I unfortunately don't have access to any technical dictionaries. But every non technical dictionary I consulted for a definition of wiring agreed that it has to do with wires. So no wires inside a snap switch = no wiring internal to a snap switch.

If the NEC is limited to your dictionary choice, then Busway cannot be a wiring method. . .
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Yet, it is.

 

[wwhitney]

If the NEC is limited to your dictionary choice, then Busway cannot be a wiring method. . .
.
.
.
Yet, it is.

Reference?

Busways are included in the definition of raceway. Chapter 3 has many articles on raceways, that doesn't mean raceways are wiring. They are, however, wiring methods and materials.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[al hildenbrand]

Reference?

Busways are included in the definition of raceway. Chapter 3 has many articles on raceways, that doesn't mean raceways are wiring. They are, however, wiring methods and materials.

Cheers, Wayne

The Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System), which you can see my emphasis of in my Post #75

 

[wwhitney]

Sure it does:

That's the definition of Premises Wiring System, not Outlet. But to address your point:

It is NOT "to the utilization equipment".

The relevant sentence from the definition of Premises Wiring System: "This includes (a) wiring from the service point or power source to the outlets or (b) wiring from and including the power source to the outlets where there is no service point".

First, the phrase "this includes" need not be comprehensive. So one can not infer from the inclusion that the Premises Wiring System stops at the outlet. Only the last sentence of the definition excludes things from the Premises Wiring System.

Second, nothing in the definition of "Premises Wiring System" itself contradicts the statement that "every point on the Premises Wiring System is an outlet." We need the definition of outlet to do that. And I believe your definition of "taken to supply" implies that all points on the Premises Wiring System are outlets, as per your simple example of a service with only one piece of Utilization Equipment.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

The Article 100 Definition of Premises Wiring (System), which you can see my emphasis of in my Post #75

So what part of that definition indicates that busways fall into the category of "wiring" rather than "associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices"? A busway seems to me to be a device.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jxofaltrds]

I agree - unless the conductors are connected at other end of cable as a switch loop only and are not capable of being extended from that point to deliver voltage directly to utilization equipment, in that case the outlet is at the other end of the switched conductor someplace.

No.

I could put a blank cover on this and it is still an outlet.

An outlet is not always the last point on any wiring system.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The relevant sentence from the definition of Premises Wiring System: "This includes (a) wiring from the service point or power source to the outlets or (b) wiring from and including the power source to the outlets where there is no service point".

No. The Definition is not part irrelevant. The whole definition of Premises Wiring (System) is relevant.

First, the phrase "this includes" need not be comprehensive.

Of course not, because of the rest of the Definition. You can't "exclude" the parts that are "not included". (Sorrry, I just couldn't resist the double negative.)

So one can not infer from the inclusion that the Premises Wiring System stops at the outlet. Only the last sentence of the definition excludes things from the Premises Wiring System.

Give examples of the Premises Wiring (System) continuing AFTER the Outlet, please.

Second, nothing in the definition of "Premises Wiring System" itself contradicts the statement that "every point on the Premises Wiring System is an outlet." We need the definition of outlet to do that. And I believe your definition of "taken to supply" implies that all points on the Premises Wiring System are outlets, as per your simple example of a service with only one piece of Utilization Equipment.

My definition of "taken to supply" as you name it, is that it is the "point" which is on the boundary between Premises Wiring (System) and not Premises Wiring (System). How you can conflate that into the "all wiring is an outlet" characterization escapes me.

 

[al hildenbrand]

So what part of that definition indicates that busways fall into the category of "wiring" rather than "associated hardware, fittings, and wiring devices"? A busway seems to me to be a device.

How do you differentiate manufactured cable such as AC or MC with conductors inside it as "wiring" (may I assume you do?) as different from the manufactured bussway with conductors inside of it to actually say that it is NOT a form of "wiring"?

What about Article 393, another Chapter 3 "Wiring" Method?

393.2 Definitions.
Low-Voltage Suspended Ceiling Distribution System. A system that serves as a support for a finished ceiling surface and consists of a busbar and busbar support system to distribute power to utilization equipment supplied by a Class 2 power supply.

Seems like wiring to me.