gas hot water heater jump or not

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georgestolz said:
Mike, to start, let's assume Edamico's water pipe is being used as an electrode. Would you say that a jumper is required at the water heater?
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NO
only the first five feet and the part, 10 feet or more, that is underground can be part of the electrode.
 
jwelectric said:
NO
only the first five feet and the part, 10 feet or more, that is underground can be part of the electrode.
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But Mike, the electrode is not part of the interior water piping.
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
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How far back does that requirement apply? Bear in mind, this is not talking about the connection of a GEC to the grounding electrode, this is about the GEC's ability to serve as a bonding conductor for the interior piping of the structure.
 
georgestolz said:
But Mike, the electrode is not part of the interior water piping.

How far back does that requirement apply? Bear in mind, this is not talking about the connection of a GEC to the grounding electrode, this is about the GEC's ability to serve as a bonding conductor for the interior piping of the structure.
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Until Charlie pointed out the Manual of Style for the NEC some year or so ago I would have agreed with you.

(D)(1) only pertains to (D) and nothing else in this or any other section of the NEC.

(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.

We are NOT told in (D) that when the water pipe is being bonded as outlined in 250.104 it must comply with (D)(1) & (2) nor is there a reference to 250.53 found in 250.104.

In 250.50 the rule that all the items found in 250.52 are to be bonded together. The metal water pipe can be the point that all this bonding takes place. In this scenario 250.53(D)(1) would apply.

In 250.104 we are required to bond the metal water pipe but there is no requirement to make the pipe electrically continuous. There is no reference to another section that mandates this either.
 
benaround said:
He's already a Plumber what else could God do??
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LMAO....that's really a good one. I'm still smiling.
I was called to a job the other day by a regular customer of mine.
Seems she had a plumber replacing her electric range with a gas unit.
Her plumber had run the 1" (steel) gas main in her garage and called for a (required) plumbing inspection. The inspector had turned him down because the gas line wasn't bonded to the electrical. The plumber was ranting and raving that he's never heard of such a thing, stupid inspector, etc. This is a licensed plumber with about 30 years experience...go figure.
Anyway, I bonded the gas line, and while I was there and installed the required 120V circuit for the gas range.
On another note, the plumber was also upset because the inspector also required him to elevate the (new also) gas water heater 18" off the floor, said he's never heard of that either. He had to move it and re-plumb.
I'm not a plumber, and I know that.
Goes to show that the old saying is true.
All you have to know to be a plumber is ...
(1) The difference between a monkey wrench and a hammer
(2) s*** doesn't run up hill
(3) Payday is on Friday
No offense to any plumbers out there, all trades have their "dunces".
Anyway...good post.
steve
 
In my area, PEX is used on every new home I've done for a long time. The only situation I can see where bonding a gas water heater would be necessary is when a non power vented heater is used. But then again even the gas piping they use is the yellow flexible stuff with a non metallic outer jacket so how would that be bonded?
 
i went and put a meter on hot to cold on my gas hw heater. zero resistance pinned the needle hot to cold gas to both pipes. i have three shower bodies two grounded gas stoves two grounded dishwashers that of course go to hot water pipes and my gas pipe goes in the ground do i still need to bond at my hw heater i think there is more bonding between hot and cold then moms and dads at a kids soocer game. i was ready to put a jumper if there was any res.iyou got me thinking something i dont do much thanks.
 
thanks even tho im out of the trade i hope one time i could give someone an answer that solves a problem or just my insight happy holidays to all i love this forum
 
I was refering to 250.104 (B) which states that the EGC could be used as the bonding means. With a power vented water heater, you are plugged into a grounded receptacle which would bond the water heater. With a non power vented gas water heater, bonding would have to be acheived externally. Maybe I'm off base on this. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
m73214 said:
With a non power vented gas water heater, bonding would have to be acheived externally.
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I'm trying to imagine what a non-power vented water heater is. You mean a standard one that has no venting assistance, and relies on flue effect? In that case, there is nothing to possibly energize the heater.

If you're simply asking about bonding the hot-water lines to the cold-water lines, that I understand. However, what might energize hot-water pipes that wouldn't energize cold-water pipes? A dishwasher has its own EGC.

We've never had hot-water pipe bonding come up.
 
Tom,
I was refering to 250.104 (B) which states that the EGC could be used as the bonding means.
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That section does not cover the bonding of water piping systems. It only applies to "other metal piping".
Don
 
I think I went off topic on this one as I was referring to the gas pipe feeding the water heater being bonded by the power vent EGC. Then I believe 250.104 (B) would dictate.
 
That would be correct.
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gas hot water heater jump or not

jwelectric said:
From what?
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Won't current flow on water pipe and electrode grounding system under an open neutral? great article about that in the Nov. EC&M magazine. Or www.EC&M
 
celtic said:
When the mixing valve gets replaced...then what? The plumber is at God's mercy?
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jwelectric said:
From what?
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romeo said:
Won't current flow on water pipe and electrode grounding system under an open neutral? great article about that in the Nov. EC&M magazine. Or www.EC&M
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So based on this finding of fact the electrician should install a bonding jumper across any and every point where a plumber ?might? need to replace a fitting or piece of the pipe?
What code section is this based on?
What code section is the bonding of the hot and cold water pipes together found?

In the article found in EC&M current is flowing from one electrode to the other electrode. If a water pipe is one of these electrodes and it is installed in a code compliant manner then the only part of the water pipe that will be conducting current will be the first five feet of the water pipe to the earth. The part of the water piping system that is entering the building will not be carrying current unless the pipe is grounded (connected to earth) or is bonded to one or more of the grounding electrodes or the service somewhere other than the first five feet. There would be no more danger in replacing something such as a mixing valve or water heater than just walking up and touching the water pipe.

If the water pipe is not part of the electrode system and is just being bonded as outlined in 250.104(A) then there will not be any more current flow on the pipe in the event of an open neutral than any of the equipment grounding conductors installed in the system.

In this open neutral situation with a bonded water pipe, would the people turning on and off lights be in as much danger as the plumber? Would the metal 6/32 screw holding the face plate on the switch not have the same potential as the metal water pipe system? If the electrical grounding is installed properly would the 6/32 screw not be bonded back to the same place as the water pipe?
I once lived in a house that was built on a poured concrete pad (no basement or crawl space) and I was so worried about this open neutral syndrome that I had the concrete removed and vulcanized rubber installed. I replaced all metal plate screws with nylon screws and all light fixtures and equipment with nonmetallic.

I am not trying to down play the dangers of the ?open neutral? in any way. This is a very dangerous situation but I can?t see how bonding around a water heater would relive any of the danger.

If I am missing something here please guide me in the right direction.
 
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