gas hot water heater jump or not

[iwire]

So based on this finding of fact the electrician should install a bonding jumper across any and every point where a plumber ?might? need to replace a fitting or piece of the pipe?

That was my thought as well.

 

[romeo]

gas hot water heater jump or not

So based on this finding of fact the electrician should install a bonding jumper across any and every point where a plumber ?might? need to replace a fitting or piece of the pipe?
What code section is this based on?
What code section is the bonding of the hot and cold water pipes together found?

In the article found in EC&M current is flowing from one electrode to the other electrode. If a water pipe is one of these electrodes and it is installed in a code compliant manner then the only part of the water pipe that will be conducting current will be the first five feet of the water pipe to the earth. The part of the water piping system that is entering the building will not be carrying current unless the pipe is grounded (connected to earth) or is bonded to one or more of the grounding electrodes or the service somewhere other than the first five feet. There would be no more danger in replacing something such as a mixing valve or water heater than just walking up and touching the water pipe.

If the water pipe is not part of the electrode system and is just being bonded as outlined in 250.104(A) then there will not be any more current flow on the pipe in the event of an open neutral than any of the equipment grounding conductors installed in the system.

In this open neutral situation with a bonded water pipe, would the people turning on and off lights be in as much danger as the plumber? Would the metal 6/32 screw holding the face plate on the switch not have the same potential as the metal water pipe system? If the electrical grounding is installed properly would the 6/32 screw not be bonded back to the same place as the water pipe?
I once lived in a house that was built on a poured concrete pad (no basement or crawl space) and I was so worried about this open neutral syndrome that I had the concrete removed and vulcanized rubber installed. I replaced all metal plate screws with nylon screws and all light fixtures and equipment with nonmetallic.

I am not trying to down play the dangers of the ?open neutral? in any way. This is a very dangerous situation but I can?t see how bonding around a water heater would relive any of the danger.

If I am missing something here please guide me in the right direction.

Do you agree that there is more danger to a person removing a hot water heater,and putting himself in series with the now disconnected pipe and becoming the current path,then someone just touching the pipe.

I once heard of a town worker being killed while repairing a pipe in the street. AsI said i heared of that I never saw any documentation.

 

[iwire]

Do you agree that there is more danger to a person removing a hot water heater,and putting himself in series with the now disconnected pipe and becoming the current path,then someone just touching the pipe.

Yes I agree, but it is no more dangerous than a plumber removing any fitting in the interior water piping system.

I once heard of a town worker being killed while repairing a pipe in the street.

That can happen as on that side of the EGC the water piping system may well be replacing an open neutral.

 

[jwelectric]

Do you agree that there is more danger to a person removing a hot water heater,and putting himself in series with the now disconnected pipe and becoming the current path,then someone just touching the pipe.

I can?t see any danger to the plumber getting between the hot and cold water line. I can see a danger in the plumber getting between the grounded pipe be it the hot or cold and the plumber being grounded.

If the cold water pipe is the grounded pipe and there is no kind of bonding such as mixing valves or mounting brackets between the two the only way anyone could be hurt by getting between the two is if the hot water pipe was grounded also. If the hot water pipe is not connected to something that would complete a path how would getting between it and the cold water pipe be a danger?

I once heard of a town worker being killed while repairing a pipe in the street. AsI said i heared of that I never saw any documentation.

In some cities that have metal water systems the danger of electrocution is present at all times due to an open neutral. The metal water system itself becomes a return path because of the requirement to use the metal water pipe as an electrode. This in no way infers that the complete water system of a building becomes the return path.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Doesn't the confusion here lie in the distinction of the minimum requirements of the NEC 250.104(B) and the requirments of the local AHJ.

 

[jwelectric]

Doesn't the confusion here lie in the distinction of the minimum requirements of the NEC 250.104(B) and the requirments of the local AHJ.

250.104(A) is the requirement for ?bonding? a metal water pipe.
Unless there is something different in writing then this is the rule.

I have searched back through the past 44 years trying to find something that would mandate bonding around such devices as water meters and equipment such as water heaters when bonding the pipe to no avail.

I have tried to figure why the bonding around a water heater would ensure that the metal water pipe is a more efficient grounding electrode but I can?t come up with anything substantial.

I have spent endless hours trying to figure why a metal water pipe is any more dangerous than a metal air pipe, metal gas pipe or a metal waste pipe.
Any other metal pipe that is installed in the same building as the metal water pipe can be bonded with the equipment grounding conductor that is supplying the equipment attached to these other metal pipes. If there is no equipment attached to these other metal pipes then no bonding is required.

What makes this pipe that has water so much more dangerous?
I can see a reason if the metal water pipe is part of a water utility that spreads out to different buildings but I just can?t find a reason if it is a dwelling unit out in the country that has it?s own well.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

My 250.104(B) post was trying to address how other metal piping may require bonding. ie: When do we need to bong gas piping at the water heater...


On the 250.104(A), perhaps the water piping system(s) are referring to the cold water piping system, and the hot water piping system, and the piping system upstream of the water meter as separate sytems. Therefore requiring jumpers.

 

[jwelectric]

My 250.104(B) post was trying to address how other metal piping may require bonding. ie: When do we need to bong gas piping at the water heater...

If there is nothing to energize the gas line at the water heater then 250.104(B) does not require any bonding at all.

On the 250.104(A), perhaps the water piping system(s) are referring to the cold water piping system, and the hot water piping system, and the piping system upstream of the water meter as separate sytems. Therefore requiring jumpers.

I can?t see where the hot and cold water pipes makes up two different systems. The same water flows through all the pipes.
The requirement in 250.104(B) only requires that the metal water piping system be bonded and the points of attachment of the bonding jumper shall be accessible.
I see no requirement for jumpers to be installed around such devices as meters, filters or pressure control devices. I see no requirement to bond around a water heater.
I think that over the years people have tried to incorporate the wording found in 250.53(D) for a metal water pipe electrode into the requirements for bonding.
There is no such requirement found in 250.104(A).

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Don't some AHJs require jumpers across the cold/gas piping sysytems?








Why then would 250.104 frequently use the words systems and system(s)?

What might be an example of another type of water piping system, if not hot and cold.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Mike,

I can’t see where the hot and cold water pipes makes up two different systems. The same water flows through all the pipes.
The requirement in 250.104(B) only requires that the metal water piping system be bonded and the points of attachment of the bonding jumper shall be accessible.
I see no requirement for jumpers to be installed around such devices as meters, filters or pressure control devices. I see no requirement to bond around a water heater

Yes, it is a single sytem that must be bonded, but if there are no metallic connections between the hot and the cold water pipes, they would have to be bonded together. This is more common with many of the valve sets being all nonmetallic and the water heater having dielectric fittings at the tank. The system has to bonded, not just a part of the system.
Don

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Mike,
[/COLOR]
Yes, it is a single sytem that must be bonded, but if there are no metallic connections between the hot and the cold water pipes, they would have to be bonded together. This is more common with many of the valve sets being all nonmetallic and the water heater having dielectric fittings at the tank. The system has to bonded, not just a part of the system.
Don

So if they are not a component of of a single system, are they then system(s)?

If it is as simple as that why confuse an electrically non-continous single water piping system with the term system(s)?

Sure seems like the Code writers are trying to capture more than one type of water piping system.

 

[jwelectric]

Don't some AHJs require jumpers across the cold/gas piping sysytems?








Why then would 250.104 frequently use the words systems and system(s)?

What might be an example of another type of water piping system, if not hot and cold.

So if they are not a component of of a single system, are they then system(s)?

If it is as simple as that why confuse an electrically non-continous single water piping system with the term system(s)?

Sure seems like the Code writers are trying to capture more than one type of water piping system.

Yes you are correct; an occupancy can have more than one type of water piping system.
Some examples
Fresh water supply and a wet sprinkler system
Fresh water supply and an irrigation system that uses reclaimed water
Fresh water supply and a water chiller for refrigeration
Fresh water supply and metal waste water pipes

Each of the above systems would be required to be bonded per 250.104(A)

 

[jwelectric]

Mike,
[/color]
Yes, it is a single sytem that must be bonded, but if there are no metallic connections between the hot and the cold water pipes, they would have to be bonded together. This is more common with many of the valve sets being all nonmetallic and the water heater having dielectric fittings at the tank. The system has to bonded, not just a part of the system.
Don

Don
Would you post the section that you are making this statement on?
I can?t find the requirement to make the metal water pipe electrically continuous when bonding.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Mike,

Would you post the section that you are making this statement on?
I can’t find the requirement to make the metal water pipe electrically continuous when bonding.

250.104(A). How can the "metal water piping system(s) be bonded if they are not continuous??? It doesn't say to bond sections of the system, it says to bond the system.
Don

 

[Natfuelbilll]

If a copper water pipe has a pvc coupling in it, does the code require a jumper across the coupling?

Would these two copper section each be a system?

 

[jwelectric]

Mike, 250.104(A). How can the "metal water piping system(s) be bonded if they are not continuous??? It doesn't say to bond sections of the system, it says to bond the system. Don

This is the reason for my asking where it states that the water pipe is to be electrically continuous. The only requirement that I see in 250.104 other than the bonding is that the point of bonding be accessible. As this question leads into a different dimension of the bonding requirement.

If a copper water pipe has a pvc coupling in it, does the code require a jumper across the coupling? Would these two copper section each be a system?

No I don?t think that the two separate pipes would constitute two systems any more that a water heater making two different systems.

The requirement to bond the water pipe was introduced to the 1971 cycle of the NEC in section 250-80. The requirement then was;

250.80 Bonding of Piping Systems. All interior metal water and gas piping that may become energized shall be bonded together and made electrically continuous. An equipment bonding jumper sized in accordance with table 250-95 shall be connected between the bonded piping system(s) and the grounding electrode conductor at the service disconnecting means.

By the 1984 code cycle the words, ?that may become energized? and ?and made electrically continuous? were removed from 250-80 and has not been in any code cycle from that date. The requirement was moved to 250.104 in the 1999 cycle.
Now I contend that if the water pipe is required to be electrically continuous when being bonded why did they remove those words from that section between 1971 and 1984? I do not have the ?78 and ?81 cycles to see what year the words ?and made electrically continuous? was removed but I do know they were removed.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

No I don?t think that the two separate pipes would constitute two systems any more that a water heater making two different systems

How then, would the pvc isolated section of pipe be bonded?


Just what the `HE double hockey sticks' is a water piping system?

 

[jwelectric]

How then, would the pvc isolated section of pipe be bonded? Just what the `HE double hockey sticks' is a water piping system?

I would say that this constitutes a good question. The complete water pipe including the PVC will be the system.
I am not debating that the hot and cold water pipes together constitute a piping system.
I am not debating that the piece of PVC would break the electrical continuity of the water pipe.
What I am debating is the requirement to make the water pipes electrically continuous. There is no requirement to do this when bonding the metal water pipes. This is something that has been held over from past code cycles when the only time that bonding was required was when the water pipes was likely to become energized.

As I have asked already, please show me the requirement to make the water pipes electrically continuous when bonding them to the service.

Here is the section from the 1975 cycle. Read it closely

 

[George Stolz]

Now I contend that if the water pipe is required to be electrically continuous when being bonded why did they remove those words from that section between 1971 and 1984?

There are many possibilities. They could have considered it self-evident, for a system to be fully connected it must be continuous. It may have been an incidental omission, after they changed the text for some other purpose.

I do not know what additional hazard a metal water pipe presents to cause it to be bonded regardless of the chances of energization. I do know the code requires the bond be made. It would be fruitless to do anything if we can leave a system or a part of a system out.

 

[jwelectric]

There are many possibilities. They could have considered it self-evident, for a system to be fully connected it must be continuous. It may have been an incidental omission, after they changed the text for some other purpose.

I do not know what additional hazard a metal water pipe presents to cause it to be bonded regardless of the chances of energization. I do know the code requires the bond be made. It would be fruitless to do anything if we can leave a system or a part of a system out.

Based on what you are saying here am I to take it that the metal stubs installed on a plastic system all need to be bonded together and back to the main?
If not then at what length will I start being required to do this bonding?