gas hot water heater jump or not

[don_resqcapt19]

Sorry guys, my set of ROPs and ROCs starts with the 84 code.
Don

 

[mdshunk]

Sorry guys, my set of ROPs and ROCs starts with the 84 code.
Don

I think JT's older collection of ROPs and ROCs might be on papyrus scrolls.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Does NFPA or Standards Council maintain these documents and appeals as evidence?

 

[George Stolz]

(1) Continuity. Continuity Of The Grounding Path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.

I can clearly see that it is the path that is requiring continuity.

You seem to give no weight to the middle of the sentence, Mike.

(1) Continuity. Continuity of <----The subject
(1.) the grounding path |
or
(2.) the bonding connection to interior piping |

shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.

Both paths require continuity. Where does each end?

I believe that the fact that they can not control the plumbing codes they gave up on the requirement for the pipes be electrically continuous.

That could very well be.

Should these metal water pipes have been bonded back to the service with a 1/0 copper bonding jumper?

That would be a call on the AHJ's part. Based on the information given (no rough lengths of each component) I wouldn't even venture an opinion yet.

 

[jwelectric]

George I will try my best but you will need to help me here, okay.

The whole of Part III of 250 address the grounding electrode and the grounding electrode conductor. The requirements for bonding such as bonding a metal water pipe that is not part of the grounding electrode if found in Part V of 250.

250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
As outlined above 250.53 in its entirety is addressing the Grounding Electrode. As we know 250.52(A)(1) says that only the first five feet of a metal water pipe entering a building can be used as the Grounding Electrode.

Now we will look at 250.53 (D)
(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).

Here in 250.53(D) it clearly states that if the metal water pipe is being used as the grounding electrode it must meet the requirements of (D)(1)
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.

We are required to have continuity between all the bonding jumpers and the earth connection as shown in the picture.
The only aspect of a metal water pipe that 250.53 address is that part of the metal pipe that is the electrode. 250.53(D) in no way requires a bonding jumper to any other part of the metal water piping system unless there are two separate metal water pipes that have 10 feet or more in contact with earth. Then the two would be required to be bonded to the service.

The requirements to bond a metal water pipe that is not being used as a grounding electrode is found in 250.104(A).

Should these metal water pipes have been bonded back to the service with a 1/0 copper bonding jumper?

That would be a call on the AHJ's part. Based on the information given (no rough lengths of each component) I wouldn't even venture an opinion yet.

He tried to make me bond them but he lost his battle.

 

[George Stolz]

Mike, I agree with what you have said about Part III being about grounding, and Part V being about Bonding. That is, I agree that that is the way it should be.

But this section violates that concept:

(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.

This section also deals with the bonding connection to interior piping, plain and simple. It shouldn't, but it does. Agree or disagree?

 

[jwelectric]

This section also deals with the bonding connection to interior piping, plain and simple. It shouldn't, but it does. Agree or disagree?

I agree that this section is concerned with the bonding jumpers of the grounding electrode as pointed out in the picture that I posted. I also agree that the first five feet of this water pipe will be interior and this interior part of the electrode must comply with the rules outlined in 250.53.
This means that the continuity of the metal water pipe is addressing the first five feet (the interior part) and no more than the first five feet.

Think like this;
I leave the service panel with my GEC and land on the steel of the building. Would this be the end of the GEC?
I leave the steel of the building and land on the metal water pipe.
What is the name of the conductor between the steel of the building and the water pipe?

Now I leave the metal water pipe and land on a driven rod.
What is the name of the conductor between the metal water pipe and the rod?

?Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping?
Would the path between these two bonding points be required to be electrically continuous?

Don?t try to read something into 240.53(D)(1) that is not there. 240.53 addresses the Grounding Electrode and nothing else.


250.53 of the NEC plays no role in section 250.104. If the metal water pipe is just being bonded then we can?t invoke the rules for a Grounding Electrode.

 

[Natfuelbilll]

I have joined a Building Code forum. I have posted a question to the plumbing section as follows.

http://bcodes.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/14093073/m/84910150831

 

[George Stolz]

Mike, if they wanted to say "bonding jumper" they would have. Why would they say "bonding connection" and introduce confusion?

 

[Natfuelbilll]

Perhaps the answer here lies in definition.

Go back to Article 100.
Bonding (bonded) The permanent joining of metallic parts to form an electrically conductive path that ensures electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any current likely to be imposed.

250.104 requires water systems be bonded.

We are required to size bonds per 250.66

What is the current carrying capacity of a metal faucet? It is not listed. Can we rely on the faucet to be electrically properly sized? Probably not.

 

[jwelectric]

Mike, if they wanted to say "bonding jumper" they would have.

Hey George this is just what I have been saying about a metal water pipe being electrically continuous. If they want the metal water pipe to be electrically continuous they would say so just as they did in past code cycles.

Why would they say "bonding connection" and introduce confusion?

It would be my guess that they say bonding connection because the bonding jumpers get ?connected? to the metal water pipe via a clamp.
I supposed they could have said terminated but they said connected instead just like they did in 250.4, 250.8 (Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment), 250.52(A)(1), 250.64(C)(3) and various other places throughout 250.

 

[George Stolz]

Hey George this is just what I have been saying about a metal water pipe being electrically continuous. If they want the metal water pipe to be electrically continuous they would say so just as they did in past code cycles.

Valid point.

It would be my guess that they say bonding connection because the bonding jumpers get ?connected? to the metal water pipe via a clamp.

Are you serious? Devil's Advocacy aside, are you being honest when you say that when they refer to the "bonding connection to interior piping" they are intending to say "bonding connection to the portion of the grounding electrode suitable for interconnecting electrodes"?

That's way out in left field, IMO. It seems pretty clear to me they goofed and stuck a bonding requirement for the interior piping in the GEC area of the codebook.

I mean, honestly, Mike...

 

[LarryFine]

Mike, if they wanted to say "bonding jumper" they would have. Why would they say "bonding connection" and introduce confusion?

Maybe because a jumper is not the only method?

 

[George Stolz]

Larry, can you clarify that statement?

 

[jwelectric]

Are you serious? Devil's Advocacy aside, are you being honest when you say that when they refer to the "bonding connection to interior piping" they are intending to say "bonding connection to the portion of the grounding electrode suitable for interconnecting electrodes"?

This is just what the code says in itself. It is right here;

250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation. (D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.

The whole of 250.53 is addressing the Grounding Electrode. (D) is addressing a metal water pipe that is being used as the electrode. (1) is addressing the point of attachment (connection) of the grounding electrode jumpers and the part of the water pipe that is the electrode itself.

Take a look at 250.53(D)(2). Here there is an exception that refers back to 250.52(A)(1), Exception that will allow for the metal water pipe to be part of the grounding electrode conductor. In this case the continuity rule in (D)(1) will apply to that part of the water pipe that would be the path between the connection of the electrode bonding jumpers.

That's way out in left field, IMO. It seems pretty clear to me they goofed and stuck a bonding requirement for the interior piping in the GEC area of the codebook. I mean, honestly, Mike...

Do you think that they have goofed for three straight code cycles? In the 1999 cycle 250 was completely redone.
It goes without saying that the path between the grounding electrodes would need to have continuity. It is the purpose of the grounding electrode conductor, be it a copper conductor or a piece of pipe, to carry current thus the requirement found in 250.53(D)(1) for that part of the grounding electrode conductor be it a conductor or a pipe to have continuity.

If all we are doing is bonding the water pipe as outlined in 250.104(A) we are only making the pipe at the same potential as the earth. It is not the intent of the metal water pipe to carry current at this point thus no requirement to be electrically continuous.

Even if code panel 5 did goof the wording found in 250.53(D)(1) could not apply to 250.104(A) as it is now written. The types of bonding connections mentioned in both sections are different and serve two different functions. There would have to be a reference in 250.104(A) to 250.53(D)(1) in order to enforce the continuity rule.

Maybe because a jumper is not the only method?

Thanks Larry, I hadn?t though of that.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I realize with 20 different minds, sometimes there will be 20 different ideas. I think way too much "thinking" is going on in this thread (Me, number 21-with idea number 21 ).

My Rops/Rocs only go back to the 80s as well, but my guess as to the change is "Redundancy". They eliminated the phrase as it is redundant. Bonding and continuousand continuity are all redundant in terms of Part V of Art 250, in regards to 250.104.

Of course I am just adding my opinion...great site huh!!!

 

[George Stolz]

Mike, I agree wholeheartedly that this section would only apply when the pipe in question is being used as an electrode.

However:

Would you say this picture is in error?

 

[jwelectric]

No George, I would say that picture is covering two different sections of the code concerning metal water pipe.

There is a Grounding Electrode Conductor that is connecting the metal water pipe that is being used as the Grounding Electrode and this pipe is electrically continuous from this connection to earth. This part of this picture is in compliance with 250.53(D).

The other part of this picture I see a bonding jumper (across the removable device) that is ran from the interior metal water pipe as outlined in 250.104.
Instead of running this bonding jumper all the way back to the service equipment as I would be required to do if the metal water pipe was supplied by underground nonmetallic pipes, I have chosen to land this jumper as outlined here;

250.104(A)(1) General. Metal water piping system(s)?.. shall be bonded?.. to the one or more grounding electrodes used.

Instead of this short jumper I could have ran a bonding jumper to anywhere that is accessible on the metal water pipe back to the panel.

If nonmetallic pipe is installed to the interior of the house and then metal water pipes are installed the only requirement to bond is found in 250.104(A)(1).
Just as the picture shows there is no requirement to have anything electrically continuous after the metal water pipe is bonded, there is no requirement found in 250.104(A)(1) to have anything electrically continuous for example: if the removable device was not in place as pictured and continued on there would be no need for a bonding jumper at all.

 

[George Stolz]

The other part of this picture I see a bonding jumper (across the removable device) that is ran from the interior metal water pipe as outlined in 250.104.

No, it's outlined in 250.53(D)(1), just as the heading of the picture (and the text of the section) states.

If you can't see this, I can't think of another way to express it, so I guess the discussion would be over, in that case.

Edit: I think I might draw up a few scenarios, to vote on, and to make our different interpretations more plain for discussion.

 

[George Stolz]

I realize with 20 different minds, sometimes there will be 20 different ideas. I think way too much "thinking" is going on in this thread...

It's a good way to kill a Monday, though, isn't it?