Gas Pipe Bonding, Particularly CSST

[don_resqcapt19]

Further, because CSST is supplied and installed by the plumbing contractor he would be most familiar with what it requires. The new black jacketed CSST for instance does not require bonding. Therefore, it's not our responsibility to furnish the bonding but rather the plumbing contractor. That's why it's not in the NEC. Not our job.

-Hal

Another reason is that the submitters of the proposals to require the CSST bonding could not provide enough technical substantiation to the CMP5 panels members to convince the members that the proposed bonding would actually solve the problem.

 

[electrofelon]

I understand they had a product that had a problem and they found a solution by bonding the gas pipe. So now you have a #6 to the water piping , a #6 going to the ground rod and a #6 going to the gas pipe. All tied together. A parallel circuit, making the Metal underground gas piping system a grounding electrode, not permitted by 250.52(B)(1). Is it just me but putting possiblely thousands of volts from a lighting strike on a gas pipe and also carry the objectionable current in a short circuit conditions a good idea. The NEC never thought making metal underground gas piping systems to be used as grounding electrode was a good idea. It looks like every time you bond a gas pipe with a #6 and make it a grounding electrode you violate the NEC 250.52(B)(1).

You are misunderstanding some things here. The reason a gas pipe is not to be used as a grounding electrode is because there is almost always a dielectric union or a transition to non metallic after the riser, making in ineffective as an electrode. That is it, it has nothing to with "gas plus electricity = bad" sort of stuff. You can still bond the gas line, you just cant count it as a required electrode. Bonding a gas pipe doesnt make it a grounding electrode.

 

[mtnelect]

You are misunderstanding some things here. The reason a gas pipe is not to be used as a grounding electrode is because there is almost always a dielectric union or a transition to non metallic after the riser, making in ineffective as an electrode. That is it, it has nothing to with "gas plus electricity = bad" sort of stuff. You can still bond the gas line, you just cant count it as a required electrode. Bonding a gas pipe doesnt make it a grounding electrode.

It's a useless endeavor. Gas will be eventually eliminated.

 

[retirede]

It's a useless endeavor. Gas will be eventually eliminated.

I’ll say this….you don’t give up!

 

[Birken Vogt]

It's a useless endeavor. Gas will be eventually eliminated.

It will take many, many decades for that to ever happen. We will probably all be retired before that ever happens. And if the political wind blows a different direction, which it surely will, all bets are off.

I recently posted about a subdivision of largeish homes ~15 years old that all have 125A breakers and the rest modern gas appliances. Because that was in vogue at the time. They are not going to just convert those over to all electric any time soon.

PG&E has just invested huge money making their gas transmission line up to this area "piggable". They did not do that knowing it was just about to be shut down any time soon.

 

[mtnelect]

It will take many, many decades for that to ever happen. We will probably all be retired before that ever happens. And if the political wind blows a different direction, which it surely will, all bets are off.

I recently posted about a subdivision of largeish homes ~15 years old that all have 125A breakers and the rest modern gas appliances. Because that was in vogue at the time. They are not going to just convert those over to all electric any time soon.

PG&E has just invested huge money making their gas transmission line up to this area "piggable". They did not do that knowing it was just about to be shut down any time soon.

The largest governmental entity we now have in California is the California Energy Commission. It will eventually control every aspect of our lives.

 

[Birken Vogt]

If things continue on their present course, yes. But they seldom do that. Even in California people will grow sick of the nonsense one day.

 

[hbiss]

The largest governmental entity we now have in California is the California Energy Commission. It will eventually control every aspect of our lives.

Your lives maybe, because you let them. So how do you think what happens in California controls the rest of the country? Especially after November 2024.

-Hal

 

[kwired]

Might be time to ask if the yellow jacketed stuff is even being sold and installed anymore.

-Hal

I haven't seen a real HVAC pro use it for a long time. I think I have seen the yellow stuff in big box stores though.

 

[kwired]

Is the bonding jumper for CSST permitted on the IBT?

I don't know, but at same time it seems this should be one the reasons why we are required to provide the IBT.

That said I have never seen anyone land a bond conductor onto any IBT I have installed. Have seen satellite TV installers place one those adjustable bond clamps on a meter or panelboard when the IBT was right there and easily accessible though. Phone guys around here don't really care and seldom see bond conductor at all. Fiber services not bonding anything and likely don't have to for that matter.

 

[hbiss]

I haven't seen a real HVAC pro use it for a long time. I think I have seen the yellow stuff in big box stores though.

To be clear, the CSST that we are talking about here is not the whip that is used to connect an appliance to the gas line. Those whips are always yellow.

-Hal

 

[retirede]

To be clear, the CSST that we are talking about here is not the whip that is used to connect an appliance to the gas line. Those whips are always yellow.

-Hal

I was just in the plumbing section at Menards last week. They have various lengths of yellow CSST available…

 

[mtnelect]

Your lives maybe, because you let them. So how do you think what happens in California controls the rest of the country? Especially after November 2024.

-Hal

I can only hope, that doesn't happen.
The California Energy Commission is way too big for its britches.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

To be clear, the CSST that we are talking about here is not the whip that is used to connect an appliance to the gas line. Those whips are always yellow.

-Hal

And the product standard for the appliance connector requires a wall thickness of about 3 times what is permitted for CSST.

 

[tthh]

I wonder sometimes how natural gas is going to fare in the coming electric world. Does it get cheaper because less people aren't using it? Does it get more expensive because the transmission costs rise becuase less people are using it?

 

[hbiss]

I wonder sometimes how natural gas is going to fare in the coming electric world.

It's consumption will decrease as electric replaces it over the next 50-100 years. When nuclear overtakes natural gas power generation again, gas consumption will go down too.

-Hal

 

[Birken Vogt]

I wonder sometimes how natural gas is going to fare in the coming electric world. Does it get cheaper because less people aren't using it? Does it get more expensive because the transmission costs rise becuase less people are using it?

There are other factors, too, like production coming and going.

The answer when predicting commodity prices in the future is, nobody knows.

We are just along for the ride and make our money doing what people need here and now.

 

[tortuga]

To be clear, the CSST that we are talking about here is not the whip that is used to connect an appliance to the gas line. Those whips are always yellow.

-Hal

I always wondered are those appliance whips are listed/identified for grounding / bonding? If the EGC to a furnace is attached to the furnace and then there is one of those whips and no other bond to the gas pipe system, does the whip bond the gas pipe?

 

[LarryFine]

If the EGC to a furnace is attached to the furnace and then there is one of those whips and no other bond to the gas pipe system, does the whip bond the gas pipe?

Since it would be the whip that is energizing the gas pipe, I'd say yes.

 

[retirede]

I always wondered are those appliance whips are listed/identified for grounding / bonding? If the EGC to a furnace is attached to the furnace and then there is one of those whips and no other bond to the gas pipe system, does the whip bond the gas pipe?

I’ve been in a lot of homes around here with gas furnaces, and I’ve never seen the gas line connected to the furnace with flex. They’re always hard-piped. If I ever did see one, I’d assume it was done by a handyman rather than an HVAC professional.