Gas Ranges & Dryers vs Service Load Calculations

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suemarkp said:
NEC 220.52 says you use 1500VA for EACH small appliance branch circuit installed. You have to install 2 for the kitchen and one for the laundry. You can choose to install more and to me it seems like they would be counted at 1500 VA each.
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Nope IMO. As long as I install at least 2, I seem to be covered.

(A) Small-Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit,
the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each
2-wire small-appliance branch circuit as covered by
210.11(C)(1).

210.11(C)(1) only says I gotta have 2, the rest are extra only.

NEC 220.54 says a dryer circuit is counted at 5000VA or the dryer nameplate, whichever is more. With no planned dryer, each one will have to be counted at 5 KVA.
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Nope IMO no dryer is served in OP.

220.54 Electric Clothes Dryers ? Dwelling Unit(s). The
load for household electric clothes dryers in a dwelling
unit(s) shall be either 5000 watts (volt-amperes) or the
nameplate rating, whichever is larger, for each dryer
served.

For a range, this one is tougher. You have NEC table 220.55, and one could argue that you've never seen a range under 8 3/4 KW which would land you in column C. The smallest demand for a range in column C is 8 KW. I think if you did not install a range receptacle and just put a blank cover there, you could argue that no specific circuit was provided so no calculated value need be used.
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The load for this is only the igniter, I will give you about 1A. let's see column A of that table says 80%. Wait it is old stove with a pilot light instead, 80% of 0 is.......
 
jumper said:
You would chew me to pieces if I had said this.
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It offends me that you think so... :weeping:


:p
"indirect", you know that is not defensible.
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It's right there in black and white... ;)

You know as well as I, if the circuits are completely functional, there would be nothing to prevent the resident from changing over to electric appliances in the future.

In practically all cases involving non-existent loads I would agree the inspector is in the wrong. This just happens to be one of those rare cases for which I cannot.
 
Smart $ said:
It offends me that you think so... :weeping:


:p

It's right there in black and white... ;)

You know as well as I, if the circuits are completely functional, there would be nothing to prevent the resident from changing over to electric appliances in the future.

In practically all cases involving non-existent loads I would agree the inspector is in the wrong. This just happens to be one of those rare cases for which I cannot.
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And there is nothing to stop a HO from plugging a microwave, toaster oven and coffee brewer on the same circuit. Oh yeah there is - the circuit breaker. HO can just as easily add a range plug without doing a calc also.
 
jumper said:
Nope IMO. As long as I install at least 2, I seem to be covered.

(A) Small-Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit,
the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each
2-wire small-appliance branch circuit as covered by
210.11(C)(1).

210.11(C)(1) only says I gotta have 2, the rest are extra only.



Nope IMO no dryer is served in OP.

220.54 Electric Clothes Dryers ? Dwelling Unit(s). The
load for household electric clothes dryers in a dwelling
unit(s) shall be either 5000 watts (volt-amperes) or the
nameplate rating, whichever is larger, for each dryer
served.



The load for this is only the igniter, I will give you about 1A. let's see column A of that table says 80%. Wait it is old stove with a pilot light instead, 80% of 0 is.......
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I agree with what you say about 210.11(C)(1).

The table you are talking about is for electric ranges only.

jumper said:
You would chew me to pieces if I had said this. "indirect", you know that is not defensible.
Click to expand...
:)
Smart $ said:
It offends me that you think so... :weeping:


:p

It's right there in black and white... ;)

You know as well as I, if the circuits are completely functional, there would be nothing to prevent the resident from changing over to electric appliances in the future.

In practically all cases involving non-existent loads I would agree the inspector is in the wrong. This just happens to be one of those rare cases for which I cannot.
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I agree with this.

Dennis Alwon said:
And there is nothing to stop a HO from plugging a microwave, toaster oven and coffee brewer on the same circuit. Oh yeah there is - the circuit breaker. HO can just as easily add a range plug without doing a calc also.
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I can easily add a range plug without doing a load calc. Usually there will not be any problem if the dwelling is supplied with a minimum 100 amp service or feeder. And if I added too much there is always the main breaker to make this obvious at a later time;)
 
suemarkp said:
NEC 220.52 says you use 1500VA for EACH small appliance branch circuit installed. You have to install 2 for the kitchen and one for the laundry. You can choose to install more and to me it seems like they would be counted at 1500 VA each.
Click to expand...

jumper said:
Nope IMO. As long as I install at least 2, I seem to be covered.

(A) Small-Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit,
the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each
2-wire small-appliance branch circuit as covered by
210.11(C)(1).

210.11(C)(1) only says I gotta have 2, the rest are extra only.
Click to expand...

I don't believe 210.11(C)(1) says you have to have 2 SABCs and the rest are extra. It says that you must have "two or more" SABCs.

220.52 says the load for each SABC is to be calculated at 1500VA. Three installed SABCs would be 4500VA, four installed SABCs would be 6000VA, etc. I think suemarkp has it right.
 
david luchini said:
I don't believe 210.11(C)(1) says you have to have 2 SABCs and the rest are extra. It says that you must have "two or more" SABCs.

220.52 says the load for each SABC is to be calculated at 1500VA. Three installed SABCs would be 4500VA, four installed SABCs would be 6000VA, etc. I think suemarkp has it right.
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Okay, I am willing to concede that I was wrong on the SABCs and suemarkp was correct on this point. I reread sections more closely.
My own fault for going outside the of scope of the OP.

However, I stand firm on the gas dryer and range.
 
suemarkp said:
NEC 220.52 says you use 1500VA for EACH small appliance branch circuit installed. You have to install 2 for the kitchen and one for the laundry. You can choose to install more and to me it seems like they would be counted at 1500 VA each.

NEC 220.54 says a dryer circuit is counted at 5000VA or the dryer nameplate, whichever is more. With no planned dryer, each one will have to be counted at 5 KVA.

For a range, this one is tougher. You have NEC table 220.55, and one could argue that you've never seen a range under 8 3/4 KW which would land you in column C. The smallest demand for a range in column C is 8 KW. I think if you did not install a range receptacle and just put a blank cover there, you could argue that no specific circuit was provided so no calculated value need be used.

If you're using the optional calculation, there is this: "All appliances that are fastened in place, permanently connected, or located to be on a specific circuit". I would argue that providing a range or dryer receptacle is locating a specific circuit for that appliance. There is always a quandry of what load to use when you're wiring a house and appliances have not been selected yet (or may never be selected if just a provision was made). In that case, I would use a nameplate from a typical appliance of that type.
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I will agree to the SABCs only. I was wrong in my assertion on that point.

I still say gas dryer and gas range need not be counted whether a circuit and receptacle are installed or not.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
So show me where the NEC makes this distinction.
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The NEC doesn't make this distinction. The AHJ can. And in doing so, may not approve these branch circuits and make the HO take them out partially or completely if they are not included in load calculations.

If someone wants you to install a welder receptacle for a portable welder (that isn't there), do you include in or omit from the load calculation?

Is either a dryer or range a fastened-in-place appliance?
 
I would be interested to know how adding these loads would change the OP's service size. I rarely find my load calcs at the tipping point that a range and dryer would cause a big issue.
Personally I would have added them in, it makes sense to, but I agree the NEC isn't requiring it.
 
Smart $ said:
The NEC doesn't make this distinction. The AHJ can. And in doing so, may not approve these branch circuits and make the HO take them out partially or completely if they are not included in load calculations.
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This I totally agree with and has been my point to some degree.

If someone wants you to install a welder receptacle for a portable welder (that isn't there), do you include in or omit from the load calculation?
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What I do and what the NEC asks is not the same-- I almost always overkill.

Is either a dryer or range a fastened-in-place appliance?
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IMO, the dryer no and the range sometimes-- an oven I would say yes esp. since these are not expected to move when the ho's move out. Fixed appliance usually stay- washer/dryer usually go.
 
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I still say the dryer counts because the NEC establishes the minimum load for that circuit regardless of what dryer you plan to install. The only way out is if that circuit isn't for a dryer. If you put it in a room like looks like a laundry, has a dryer vent hole in the wall, and has a typical 20A or 30A 240V receptacle, I think it needs to be counted.
 
suemarkp said:
I still say the dryer counts because the NEC establishes the minimum load for that circuit regardless of what dryer you plan to install. The only way out is if that circuit isn't for a dryer. If you put it in a room like looks like a laundry, has a dryer vent hole in the wall, and has a typical 20A or 30A 240V receptacle, I think it needs to be counted.
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The NEC does not mandate a dryer circuit at all, just a minimum one 20 amp circuit and one receptacle for laundry.
 
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True. But if you install one, they mandate that it have a calculated load of 5 KVA or the nameplate of the dryer, whichever is HIGHER. This is no different than the kitchen SABC circuits. You have to do two of those and they are 1500VA each. If you choose to do more than 2, they are and additional 1500VA each. It doesn't matter if you plan to use them for anything more than nightlights or not, code says 1500VA. Only difference is a dryer circuit doesn't have to be installed whereas you need at least 2 SABCs.
 
suemarkp said:
True. But if you install one, they mandate that it have a calculated load of 5 KVA or the nameplate of the dryer, whichever is HIGHER. This is no different than the kitchen SABC circuits. You have to do two of those and they are 1500VA each. If you choose to do more than 2, they are and additional 1500VA each. It doesn't matter if you plan to use them for anything more than nightlights or not, code says 1500VA. Only difference is a dryer circuit doesn't have to be installed whereas you need at least 2 SABCs.
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I have already conceded to you and David L. that I was wrong about the SABC thing, I tossed that out at 1:00AM and blew it.

Now back to dryer and range. I am not diputing that there are minimum load calcs for a electric dryer and range, if they are to be installed, I say that circuits ran for possible future change over to electric for gas dryers and ranges, that are installed, are not mandated to be included in the service calc.
 
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