GFCI and AFCI
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Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
I suppose it depends on the code version this falls under.
Under the 2011 code you must install afci for replacements. but that does not include kitchen or bath until 2014.
I don't know how you will comply in the kitchen.
I think many of us are going to become outlaws.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I think that 406.4(D)(4) is clear on afci
It is also clear for Gfci in 406.4(D)(3)
It is also clear for Gfci in 406.4(D)(3)
electricguy61
Senior Member
Just curious Dennis:
You have a receptacle in a 1960's vintage home, and it needs to be replaced. You believe the code requires the replacement receptacle to be an arc fault or the breaker feeding it needs to be arc fault? Could not the "where required" be intrepreted as "where required at the date of constrcution"?
Man, as if I don't have enough problems with arc fault breakers in new homes, this opens up a whole new can of worms.:happysad:
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
You can interpret it that way but I think the authority having jurisdiction may laugh at you. It would make no sense to make that a requirement as you stated
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Does it make a lot of sense to allow you to replace a panel and not require Arc Fault breakers and then require them if you change out one receptacle?
Even if Arc Faults receptacles were to work just how much good would it do to replace only one ?
The added cost is just going to keep people from replaceing old receptacles that really need to be replaced or get a handyman to do it.
Dennis I know you didn't write the code but it doesn't make a lot of sense as written if safety were the motivation.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
This is what is so wrong with what has been codified. If you touch a lowsey receptacle where afci is required by the current code.
The words of the code say replace a receptacle then yes replace with AFCI or GFCI.
So those of you on the 2014 code have a real dilemma.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I agree with the others that the GFCI protection of the replacement, where specified in the current Code that applies in your customer's jurisdiction, is required, and there is no way to avoid it.
However, AFCI is another matter. If you pigtail the new replacement receptacles onto the existing wiring with just a little bit of new conductor, this pigtail allows you to invoke 210.12(B) Exception and waive the AFCI. This works under the 2014 NEC only, and is so solid (though heretical to some of the safety minded) that the removal of it applying to 406.4(D) Replacements is having to be added to the 2017 NEC.
we found a Cutler Hammer breaker that is AFCI and GFCI combo. The Rep said it would satisty the 2014 because it had both requirements.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Al so how do we deal with code 406.4(D)(4) in the 2011 code where is states:
(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a
receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires
arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection as specified
elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this
outlet shall be one of the following: ..............
What is being changed in the 2017 ?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Actually I wrote one of the proposal that stated you didn't have to install an afci on a panel change. Someone else added the 6'. Changing a panel doesn't add or change devices. If I have a bad breaker I don't need to use an afci either as a replacement. I certainly don't want the afci issues on some of the junk wiring that is done on many older homes.
I agree that changing a receptacle out is a bit much to require a afci and possibly a gfci
bristlepad
Member
- Location
- Jacksonville Florida
Basically if your inspector hates you or is on a power trip, you will need to do these ridiculous installations of AFCI receps or CBs. Any realist electrician with any residential experience will tell you AFCI is freaking nightmare integrated into an existing, particularly old circuit. I've had conversations with inspectors about how useless AFCI is, right on the job site where he encouraged me not to put them in. Also seen a recep melt out of a wall in a brand new home on an AFCI breaker and it didn't trip.
GFCI is a quick easy fix on an old ungrounded circuit to pass home inspections, though.
GFCI is a quick easy fix on an old ungrounded circuit to pass home inspections, though.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Similar conversation here, which I had at a residential final just this Tuesday. Inspector shared the experience he had of inspecting another contractor's panel, where a branch circuit conductor, connected to a brand new AFCI breaker, was continuously arcing and never tripping as they stood and watched and waited. . . .
"Things that make you go Hmmmmm. . . "
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
There is no 210.12(B) Exception in the 2011 NEC.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
and I was not talking about that exception to the code. that does not appear to 2014.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Well, you see, my comment to the OP, above was limited to the 2014 NEC and speaks to the 210.12(B) Exception. And when you asked me about what you do about the 2011, I tried to point you to the fact that I said my comment was limited to the 2014 NEC.
What I have read of the 2017 NEC NFPA reports of what is developing, looking at 210.12 specifically, has had new added text to 210.12 that limits the 210.12(B) Exception to NOT be used on 406.4(D).
What will be in the final result of the 2017 NEC is still not known, at least by me.
electricguy61
Senior Member
Well, I guess I'm going to be lawyer bait:
1) I don't have to pull a permit to repair existing wiring in a home
2) I wouldn't pull one anyway to replace a receptacle(s)
3) No one will know I didn't pull a permit or install arc fault protection unless I'm ratted out by the owner (very unlikely) or I cause a fire by my replacing the receptacle (which I would hope the probability of which is rather low).:happyno:
1) I don't have to pull a permit to repair existing wiring in a home
2) I wouldn't pull one anyway to replace a receptacle(s)
3) No one will know I didn't pull a permit or install arc fault protection unless I'm ratted out by the owner (very unlikely) or I cause a fire by my replacing the receptacle (which I would hope the probability of which is rather low).:happyno:
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Sounds like the CMP has spoken. The original intent may not have been to allow an exception. We will see.
I never thought your theory was the intent.
IMHO
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
I would think that in most States a contractors license says you shall work as per code regardless if inspected.
electricguy61
Senior Member
Absolutely correct.
BTW: How many arc fault receptacles or circuits have you installed for replacements?
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