GFCI for 220v garage receptacle.

[retirede]

Crazy question but how in Hades are these cheaper 14/50 even for sale if they are such a fire hazard? I assume they are Labeled/Listed.

It’s been discussed here before. My theory is that the testing to UL standards is carried out on brand new devices and there is no consideration about thermal or mechanical degradation over time.

These failure are being reported by people who’ve had them installed by a licensed electrician under a permit and inspected, and are using them with a 40A EVSE.

Here is a picture showing some differences in construction details between ones that melt and those that do not:

 

[nietzj]

Why not just use the correct NEMA 6-50 receptacle if the charger nameplate is '240' Volt and can be set to charge at 40 amps?
I believe you can adjust the charging amps in the settings in the charger, I set them to no pull more than 40A thru a 50A receptacle and 6/2 NM cable.

If I was inspecting this install and the current draw was dependent on the user manually setting their charging device to 40A knowing full well the max setting is 48A I doubt I would accept it. If the charger could not be set beyond 40A no problem.

 

[tortuga]

and are using them with a 40A EVSE.

I believe it all except the 40A part is lacking evidence in the claims I have looked into.
I'd like to see someone set up a data logger on a properly configured EVSE.
Since all a electrician is installing and inspector is inspecting is a 50A receptacle not what gets plugged in there is no way for them to enforce that 40A limit.
But back to my 6-50 campaign, 6-50's always have full metal contacts on both sides.

If I was inspecting this install and the current draw was dependent on the user manually setting their charging device to 40A knowing full well the max setting is 48A I doubt I would accept it. If the charger could not be set beyond 40A no problem.

All that gets inspected is the receptacle not what gets plugged in.
There are dip switches in the tesla "wall connector" EVSE you have to turn to set it to 40A,
I am not saying UL is perfect, they also allow companies to sell apace heaters with 15A cord caps that pull more than 12 Amps.
People plug in those and melt outlets all the time.

 

[retirede]

If I was inspecting this install and the current draw was dependent on the user manually setting their charging device to 40A knowing full well the max setting is 48A I doubt I would accept it. If the charger could not be set beyond 40A no problem.

Your interpretation matches the NEC requirement. The only caveat is that an EVSE is allowed to be derated to meet the branch circuit ampacity as long as the setting cannot be accessed by the user without using tools.

 

[retirede]

I believe it all except the 40A part is lacking evidence in the claims I have looked into.
I'd like to see someone set up a data logger on a properly configured EVSE.
Since all a electrician is installing and inspector is inspecting is a 50A receptacle not what gets plugged in there is no way for them to enforce that 40A limit.
But back to my 6-50 campaign, 6-50's always have full metal contacts on both sides.


All that gets inspected is the receptacle not what gets plugged in.
There are dip switches in the tesla "wall connector" EVSE you have to turn to set it to 40A,
I am not saying UL is perfect, they also allow companies to sell apace heaters with 15A cord caps that pull more than 12 Amps.
People plug in those and melt outlets all the time.

UL listed EVSEs capable of more than 40A are not supplied with a cord and plug. That includes the Wall Connector you mention. From the manual:

I can’t believe all of these failures were the result of end users adding a cord and 14-50P to an EVSE designed to be hard-wired.

 

[tortuga]

UL listed EVSEs capable of more than 40A are not supplied with a cord and plug. That includes the Wall Connector you mention. From the manual:

I can’t believe all of these failures were the result of end users adding a cord and 14-50P to an EVSE designed to be hard-wired.

Interesting I did not know that. Are all EVSE's UL listed?
How many failures are we talking about? Are these failures documented somewhere?
Homeowners do install range and dryer cords all the time.
I just have not herd of any failures here locally and EV's are very popular here.
Seems like forensic data is lacking.

I have never seen a 6-50 receptacle with a 1/2 width prong like those cheap range receptacles.
And a 6-50 certainly does not cost as much as those Hubble 14-50 ones.
So why a electrician would pull a huge neutral and spend $$$ for a Hubble 14-50 for no reason is beyond me. Just install a 6-50 and call it a day.

 

[LarryFine]

I have never seen a 6-50 receptacle with a 1/2 width prong like those cheap range receptacles.

I think it's done so they can use the same part for the neutral in 30a receptacles.

 

[letgomywago]

Interesting I did not know that. Are all EVSE's UL listed?
How many failures are we talking about? Are these failures documented somewhere?
Homeowners do install range and dryer cords all the time.
I just have not herd of any failures here locally and EV's are very popular here.
Seems like forensic data is lacking.

I have never seen a 6-50 receptacle with a 1/2 width prong like those cheap range receptacles.
And a 6-50 certainly does not cost as much as those Hubble 14-50 ones.
So why a electrician would pull a huge neutral and spend $$$ for a Hubble 14-50 for no reason is beyond me. Just install a 6-50 and call it a day.

I know that every electric car owner has multiple adapters for various plugs. Maybe some of those are not listed

 

[Fred B]

Just install a 6-50 and call it a day.

The chargers I've seen with a cord connect have all come in with a 14-50 attachment. Internally to the charger the neutral of the cord simply cut and capped. Do they even send with a 6-50?
Still prefer to hard wire.
Kicker the cord connect I have come across the "Amazon ordered cheap charger" HO will buy, it has no installer app and no internal limiter to set at lower max charge with the potential of up to 48A setting. HO can then attempt to set to the higher level to try to speed up the charge, and if you are only wire for the 14-50 receptacle it will melt down at the 60A/48A load setting.
(HO: "It's got a 50A breaker so I can set it to 48A.")

 

[Fred B]

Charger used with PHEV, set to 48A, it could theoretically have full charge capability under 3 hrs. Would that now mean it wouldn't need to be sized as a continuous load?
I could foresee that argument coming.

 

[retirede]

Interesting I did not know that. Are all EVSE's UL listed?
How many failures are we talking about? Are these failures documented somewhere?
Homeowners do install range and dryer cords all the time.
I just have not herd of any failures here locally and EV's are very popular here.
Seems like forensic data is lacking.

I have never seen a 6-50 receptacle with a 1/2 width prong like those cheap range receptacles.
And a 6-50 certainly does not cost as much as those Hubble 14-50 ones.
So why a electrician would pull a huge neutral and spend $$$ for a Hubble 14-50 for no reason is beyond me. Just install a 6-50 and call it a day.

No….there’s a lot of unlisted, made in China junk on Amazon.

Many EVSEs that are cord and plug come with an integral 14-50. The one I have includes an imbedded temp sensor in the plug so there’s no way to change it to a 6-50. Some can be ordered from the manufacturer with either plug and for those, I agree, 6-50 is a better choice.

 

[retirede]

Charger used with PHEV, set to 48A, it could theoretically have full charge capability under 3 hrs. Would that now mean it wouldn't need to be sized as a continuous load?
I could foresee that argument coming.

No PHEV I’m aware of has that big of a charger. The biggest one I’m aware of is the Chrysler Pacifica and it’s 6.6 KW. 32A max.

The NEC clearly states that EVSEs are to be treated as a continuous load. That argument will be lost.

 

[Fred B]

No PHEV I’m aware of has that big of a charger. The biggest one I’m aware of is the Chrysler Pacifica and it’s 6.6 KW. 32A max.

The NEC clearly states that EVSEs are to be treated as a continuous load. That argument will be lost.

Enphase, Charge Point, both have 48A capacity but are Electrician/installer controlled Max setting. The cheap Amazon are simply user controlled Max setting.
Agree that code stipulates it as a continuous load. But, if the user has control over max setting they "WILL" make the argument and WILL try to use it at the charger max capacity. (Out of our control.) Until some significant damage and court case develop to force something else, these "cheap" chargers should thus be wire at it's max capacity, IMO.

 

[retirede]

Enphase, Charge Point, both have 48A capacity but are Electrician/installer controlled Max setting. The cheap Amazon are simply user controlled Max setting.
Agree that code stipulates it as a continuous load. But, if the user has control over max setting they "WILL" make the argument and WILL try to use it at the charger max capacity. (Out of our control.) Until some significant damage and court case develop to force something else, these "cheap" chargers should thus be wire at it's max capacity, IMO.

Those are EVSEs, not chargers. And the 48A ones don’t come with a 14-50P.

The charger is in the car and it controls the charge rate up to what the EVSE tells it is available.

You should review how the J1772 standard works. A user cannot make a car charge at a rate exceeding the hardware in the car.

 

[VirutalElectrician]

It’s been discussed here before. My theory is that the testing to UL standards is carried out on brand new devices and there is no consideration about thermal or mechanical degradation over time.

These failure are being reported by people who’ve had them installed by a licensed electrician under a permit and inspected, and are using them with a 40A EVSE.

Here is a picture showing some differences in construction details between ones that melt and those that do not:

The 9450A receptacle also weighs about twice as much as other 14-50 receptacles.

The one problem with them is, they are slightly larger than other receptacles, so you need to be specific about the size openings for wall plates.

 

[wwhitney]

The NEC clearly states that EVSEs are to be treated as a continuous load.

A minor disagreement--I agree an EVSE is a continuous load, but Article 625 doesn't state that clearly. It instructs you to size the OCPD at 125% (625.41), and it says an EVSE is a continuous load "for the purposes of this article" (625.42). Which in theory means that it may not be a continuous load for the purposes of other articles, like articles 210 and 215.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[VirutalElectrician]

Curious as the consumer demand for such fast charging at home. I'm guessing 95% of customers leave work, run errands, come home, plug in and never leave again until the next day. Seems like a charge time of 8 hrs should be typical. Do they really need to charge at even 40 amps? Sorry, not really up on EVs and charge rates, living in a rural area, they are few and far between.

Given it's well publisized that the slower you charge, the longer your batteries last, people would want to optimize for battery life when charging at home.

Might be an interesting charger feature to have a 2/4/6/8 hr button on the charger, so you could tell the charger how long you think it'll be before you need the vehicle again, so the charger and car can estimate how long it will take to recharge, and adapt to the slowest charging rate possible. Might be some financial incentive for the PoCo's to get behind this so they don't have a charging spike in the power grid between 6 and 8 pm when every one comes home and starts sucking 48A at the same time. You could even add a little display on there to estimate the cost to recharge at the various rates, to give the customer instant feed back on the financial incentive a PoCo would offer to recharge at a slower rate.

 

[retirede]

A minor disagreement--I agree an EVSE is a continuous load, but Article 625 doesn't state that clearly. It instructs you to size the OCPD at 125% (625.41), and it says an EVSE is a continuous load "for the purposes of this article" (625.42). Which in theory means that it may not be a continuous load for the purposes of other articles, like articles 210 and 215.

Cheers, Wayne

That’s a subtle distinction I hadn’t considered. I wonder if it was intended to read that way? I kind of doubt it.

 

[retirede]

Curious as the consumer demand for such fast charging at home. I'm guessing 95% of customers leave work, run errands, come home, plug in and never leave again until the next day. Seems like a charge time of 8 hrs should be typical. Do they really need to charge at even 40 amps? Sorry, not really up on EVs and charge rates, living in a rural area, they are few and far between.

Given it's well publisized that the slower you charge, the longer your batteries last, people would want to optimize for battery life when charging at home.

Might be an interesting charger feature to have a 2/4/6/8 hr button on the charger, so you could tell the charger how long you think it'll be before you need the vehicle again, so the charger and car can estimate how long it will take to recharge, and adapt to the slowest charging rate possible. Might be some financial incentive for the PoCo's to get behind this so they don't have a charging spike in the power grid between 6 and 8 pm when every one comes home and starts sucking 48A at the same time. You could even add a little display on there to estimate the cost to recharge at the various rates, to give the customer instant feed back on the financial incentive a PoCo would offer to recharge at a slower rate.

A couple points.

The ideal situation would be if I could just tell the car what time I want charging to finish, and it charges at the lowest rate that reaches the specified level on time. AFAIK, no manufacturer offers this feature.

L2 home charging is not “fast”. The batteries are designed to be fast-charged at 150 KW or more with minimal degradation. So charging at home at 7 KW instead of 11 KW isn’t going to have any noticeable effect on battery life.

Some POCOs give a low rate for charging as long as you let them control when you can charge. Others have TOU rates so drivers will schedule the charging off-peak. These things are evolving.

 

[wwhitney]

That’s a subtle distinction I hadn’t considered. I wonder if it was intended to read that way? I kind of doubt it.

The phrase "for the purposes of this article" was clearly intentional, so I see the distinction as intentional. Which does open the door a crack for the argument "this EVSE is only going to be used for cars that can charge fully in under 3 hours, so it's not a continuous load."

That touches on the whole question of whether the EVSE is utilization equipment or not.

Cheers, Wayne