GFCI not recommended

Status
Not open for further replies.
mbrooke said:
Not for the GFCI protection regarding refrigerators and dishwashers. However the evidence submitted to the NFPA appeared to be very weak with no direct proof or correlation. I do find it interesting though that the majority of what gets accepted comes from NEMA or manufacturing reps.

For example people submitted proposals in verbiage changes regarding wire but it was denied. As soon is NEMA says lets change rubber to thermo-plastic to reflect the times it gets done.
Click to expand...

So in short, you have done nothing but you want the rules to change.:?
 
A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink can trip a GFCI, regardless of sink bonding, unless the overload trips first.
Regardless of sink bonding, other grounding paths / bare feet on floor / hand on faucet / can trip the GFCI
 
mbrooke said:
I know how 2 wire and 3 wire systems work in relation to GFCIs and so does Dennis. This place is absolutely insane.

A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink with no ground path will not trip a GFCI. A 3 wire appliance with an intact EGC back to the panel will trip a GFCI. If the sink itself has a ground path it will trip the GFCI regardless of it being 2 wire or 3 wire.
Click to expand...

(IMO) GFCI is not put there to trip because a two wire corded appliance is dropped into the sink, it is put there so that if said appliance drops into the sink, and maybe energizes the water in the sink, it will protect the person that happens to reach into the sink to retrieve it that may be standing barefoot on a grounded/partially grounded floor or in contact somehow with something that is grounded. It doesn't have to trip, it doesn't even have to trip if there is a three wire cord though it is much more likely to then a two wire cord, it is there to protect people from the potential hazards that are present in such a situation.
 
ramsy said:
A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink can trip a GFCI, regardless of sink bonding, unless the overload trips first.
Regardless of sink bonding, other grounding paths / bare feet on floor / hand on faucet / can trip the GFCI
Click to expand...

I know, but assume the sink is floating relative to ground every way possible.
 
kwired said:
(IMO) GFCI is not put there to trip because a two wire corded appliance is dropped into the sink, it is put there so that if said appliance drops into the sink, and maybe energizes the water in the sink, it will protect the person that happens to reach into the sink to retrieve it that may be standing barefoot on a grounded/partially grounded floor or in contact somehow with something that is grounded. It doesn't have to trip, it doesn't even have to trip if there is a three wire cord though it is much more likely to then a two wire cord, it is there to protect people from the potential hazards that are present in such a situation.
Click to expand...

I agree and this is the way I've always understood it right here-a gfci is to protect someone from completing a circuit between unintentional current and a grounded path.
 
kwired said:
it is put there so that if said appliance drops into the sink, and maybe energizes the water in the sink, it will protect the person that happens to reach into the sink to retrieve it that may be standing barefoot on a grounded/partially grounded floor or in contact somehow with something that is grounded.
Click to expand...

Exactly that.
 
ramsy said:
A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink can trip a GFCI, regardless of sink bonding, unless the overload trips first.
Regardless of sink bonding, other grounding paths / bare feet on floor / hand on faucet / can trip the GFCI
Click to expand...

No, in some ways it cannot and it won't. What if the floor is non conductive/dry ( old tongue and groove floor, block and base foundation under house) and the plumbing fittings/pipe are all plastic?
 
mbrooke said:
It doesn't matter how much you write, they ignore it even with good substantiation.
Click to expand...

That's a broad absolute statement that I find untrue.

Many members here have written proposals and have gotten them accepted.

I can provide many examples if you wish.

I fail to see how you expect change with no action. Most perplexing I must say.
 
jumper said:
That's a broad absolute statement that I find untrue.

Many members here have written proposals and have gotten them accepted.

I can provide many examples if you wish.

I fail to see how you expect change with no action. Most perplexing I must say.
Click to expand...

You missed my point...

I know Dennis has submitted proposals that got approved, and I see university students and garden electricians get proposals accepted. However I have yet to see a proposal removing AFCIs from the code get accepted. I have yet to see proposals that actually save cost on installation get accepted. But if it adds cost (like that roof top adder table) you bet it gets accepted.
 
romex jockey said:
As long as the toroidal sees no imbalance , it can maintain energization

~CS~
Click to expand...

True. But my point, (and yes Im not the best at making them) I cant see a gas range getting immersed.

However moving the point forward I am going to dig into the range a bit deeper. From the installation manual can I guess this puppy if Frigidaire?
 
mbrooke said:
You missed my point...

I know Dennis has submitted proposals that got approved, and I see university students and garden electricians get proposals excepted. However I have yet to see a proposal removing AFCIs from the code get accepted. I have yet to see proposals that actually save cost on installation get accepted. But if it adds cost (like that roof top adder table) you bet it gets accepted.
Click to expand...

You really should pay more attention to the process. Ryan Jackson got a proposal deleting the roof adder table removed for the 2017. It just has to survive the comment process.
 
jumper said:
You really should pay more attention to the process. Ryan Jackson got a proposal deleting the roof adder table removed for the 2017. It just has to survive the comment process.
Click to expand...



Will see if it survives. But this aside it doesn't change hundreds of other proposals that were thrown under the buss or accepted without solid reason (proof) to back them up.
 
When I was a kid, I got a nice jolt while touching the electric fry pan and the sink. I guess that sink was well grounded. No GFCI's in my parents kitchen back then.
 
sparkyrick said:
When I was a kid, I got a nice jolt while touching the electric fry pan and the sink. I guess that sink was well grounded. No GFCI's in my parents kitchen back then.
Click to expand...

Classic effect here of getting caught between something hot and that old bonded galvanized plumbing and cast iron drains.:)
 
mbrooke said:
Will see if it survives. But this aside it doesn't change hundreds of other proposals that were thrown under the buss or accepted without solid reason (proof) to back them up.
Click to expand...

Regardless of what others have proposed and have either been accepted or rejected, I am asking about you.

Since you seem rather vehement on this and other issues, why do you just stand aside and do nothing.

Complaining here will not change anything. Will it?

One must take reasonable action if one seeks to address a grievance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top