GFCI not recommended

[sparkyrick]

Personally I haven't seen an EGC on a toaster. My toaster is pretty old though.

OK, I probably picked the wrong item for that scenario, LOL!

 

[growler]

However for large appliances like a range, fridge or dishwasher I dont see that taking place. About the only real risk is installer error not hooking up the EGC which would be a code violation to begin with.

Installer Error..... Probably not as unlikely as you would like to think.

In a new house or business an electrician may be involved with the installation of appliances but what happens when they are replaced?

In many motels and apartments the maintenance personnel replace appliances and many are not all that qualified. In homes either the owner or a person working for the seller replaces appliances. We would like to think these are qualified technicians but I wouldn't count on it.

If you work in people's homes you will find lots of missing grounds as the houses get older. May be just a loose connection or where someone that didn't know what they were doing tampered with the circuit. It happens

 

[mbrooke]

About that plugged in and bonded toaster-someone will have the metallic utensil in one hand while trying to hold down ( and touch the now bonded metal shell) the toaster with the other-thats the hazard and a good reason for not bonding that casing.

Ok, you do have a very good point there. :thumbsup: I still dont think this influences manufactures not to out EGC on them but from a theoretical perspective Id say that is a sound theory.
In this case you are correct imo.

I think that the assured egc option on those outdoor job sites has more to do with risk- you will be wearing work boots and you generally wont be grounded that well- an egc will not protect you if you come into contact with current while you are grounded. Walking through a puddle of water on the ground outdoors that has a damaged cord draped thru it is a far cry from being standing bare foot in energized water or on conductive damp surface while touching a bonded frame (a direct connection back to the source) of an appliance.

Could be. For the sake of the argument Id say you are correct here. In any case abraded cords aside the assure grounding program basically says the real risk is an open EGC. On large appliances the is not likely.

 

[mbrooke]

Installer Error..... Probably not as unlikely as you would like to think.

In a new house or business an electrician may be involved with the installation of appliances but what happens when they are replaced?

Bigger chance someone unqualified will be doing it. No doubt about that. But here is the million dollar question. How far should code go to protect DIY screw ups? If we had to consider every possible DIY screw up the code would be 5000 pages long with 12 volts power limited DC for residential circuits.

In many motels and apartments the maintenance personnel replace appliances and many are not all that qualified. In homes either the owner or a person working for the seller replaces appliances. We would like to think these are qualified technicians but I wouldn't count on it.

The problem is them, not the code.

If you work in people's homes you will find lots of missing grounds as the houses get older. May be just a loose connection or where someone that didn't know what they were doing tampered with the circuit. It happens

It does. But whose fault is that? Some of the DIY stuff is mortifying. You have You Tube videos of guys shorting across 200amp terminals with a hammer testing for power and wiring 20amp outlets directly to that without OCPD or GFCI . Others are mounting halogen can lights not intended to be against wood or insulation, others putting 50amp hottubs on #12. All these cases are fire and death waiting to happen and you bet others will be doing the same. Adding more rules isnt going to stop those who already have a blatant disregard.

 

[growler]

the assure grounding program basically says the real risk is an open EGC. On large appliances the is not likely.

It's not likely but it does happen. At what point is it worth the trouble? I really don't know.

We don't have an assured grounding program for homes and businesses. Which is cheaper, to install a GFCI protected receptacle with a test button or have someone come out and test the circuit on a regular basis.

 

[user 100]

Which is cheaper, to install a GFCI protected receptacle with a test button or have someone come out and test the circuit on a regular basis.

:thumbsup:Bingo. Another thing too is what happens in the interim between those tests? Imho, any wireman who feels its better to do regular assured egc testing in a home can have fun babysitting those cords and branch circuits he installed while the rest of us can do it right the first time, ( follow the NEC ) and gfci where required and get on with our lives and on to the next job.

 

[growler]

How far should code go to protect DIY screw ups?

I don't know and I don't think anyone else does either.

The problem is that evertime someone is injured or killed there is a public out cry, a pointing of fingers and a demand for solutions. This is the world we live in so how do you deal with it.

50 years from now there will probably be a life guard at the public rest rooms because someone drowned in the toilet.

 

[iwire]

the assure grounding program basically says the real risk is an open EGC. On large appliances the is not likely.

You keep saying this like you know this to be a fact.

It is not a fact, it is simply your guess.

 

[kwired]

NEC 2014

210.8(A)
(7) Sinks — where receptacles are installed within 1.8 m
(6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink

Currently added in the 2017 ROP:

For the purposes of this section, when determining distance from receptacles the distance shall be measured as the shortest path the cord of an appliance connected to the receptacle would follow without piercing a floor, wall, ceiling, or fixed barrier, or passing through a door, doorway, or window.

Which a change or at least a clarification of intent was needed - disposers was one item that raised questions immediately when 2014 come out and whether or not their "receptacle" where cord and plug connected was considered to be within six feet of the sink.

That is true and very likely in small portable appliances both from plugging & un-plugging along with the cord becoming damaged, but such is not common for large appliances.




I agree, however in the US most toasters are two prong so if the plumbing is plastic the GFCI would in theory hold.

Sink may be grounded by other means - maybe there is a disposer in there that introduces a grounded object.

We are installing and being inspected to the '14

AFCI branch , GFCI as required.

New appliances all have NRTL sticker, major American manufacturer

Appliances will not tolerate '14 requirements

Manufacturer 'tech support' openly advocating code violations

Can't close this job out .....Can't get paid.......Can't make everyone happy

Who's authority do i hail to?

~RJ~

GFCIs look for imbalance, if none is flowing then it will not trip them.

But sometimes they still trip due to inductive kickback, popular name brands are more resistant but not totally immune to tripping from inductive kickback.

True

Nobody wants to make the call, and the EC takes the fall.....

~RJ~

Kind of answered what I was going to say to what I quoted from you above --- many of these code changes in more recent years put the contractor on the hook for a lot of design issues that should be put on some manufacturers. We have to install per code, but reality is what is code puts a lot of inconvenience to users - and they demand the contractors to fix those problems, contractor goes to manufacturer of products involved and gets nowhere when it comes to a solution that will meet codes and make user happy. If something is actually broken or defective that is one thing, but we have products out there that are required to be used and others that don't play well with the required products. And stuff that is changing so fast - things you sold only 5 years ago are now obsolete and you can't find parts or support for them.

 

[mbrooke]

You keep saying this like you know this to be a fact.

It is not a fact, it is simply your guess.

I am not referring to large appliances in commercial kitchens. Second you have no way of knowing if I am guessing or not.

 

[mbrooke]

Sink may be grounded by other means - maybe there is a disposer in there that introduces a grounded object.

I know that. It can be grounded several ways. But thats not what I am saying. My point is immersion alone is not a concern. If it was everything would have ILCIs.

But sometimes they still trip due to inductive kickback, popular name brands are more resistant but not totally immune to tripping from inductive kickback.

Which if true is the reason why GFCIs should not be on refrigerators. One thing common to most Fridges is that leakage current is naturally higher due to the large amount of internal wiring, most of which rest against grounded metal. The distributed capacitance is higher then say a toaster oven. Second the electronic control boards have MOVs that shunt to ground.

How likely the above is to trip a GFCI I can only guess on this one, but some people do make a good argument regarding with the above.

That aside it peanuts compared to the inverter compressors pulling power through AFCIs.

 

[peter d]

You keep saying this like you know this to be a fact.

It is not a fact, it is simply your guess.

I'll simply say this - if we had a body or injury count from electrocution and shock from large residential appliances, then we would have GFCI rules for them long before the current 2014 rule existed.

 

[mbrooke]

I'll simply say this - if we had a body or injury count from electrocution and shock from large residential appliances, then we would have GFCI rules for them long before the current 2014 rule existed.

I agree. Second I looked at the ROPs, the evidence used to support it was incredibly thin imo.

 

[kwired]

I know that. It can be grounded several ways. But thats not what I am saying. My point is immersion alone is not a concern. If it was everything would have ILCIs.





Which if true is the reason why GFCIs should not be on refrigerators. One thing common to most Fridges is that leakage current is naturally higher due to the large amount of internal wiring, most of which rest against grounded metal. The distributed capacitance is higher then say a toaster oven. Second the electronic control boards have MOVs that shunt to ground.

How likely the above is to trip a GFCI I can only guess on this one, but some people do make a good argument regarding with the above.

That aside it peanuts compared to the inverter compressors pulling power through AFCIs.

Most anything with electronics anymore has MOV's that shunt surge current to ground. I seldom see GFCI issues with them though. Problem is everyone cries about how much a freezer of warm food costs because GFCI opened the circuit. It still cost a lot less then a loss of life because the appliance had a ground fault and the EGC failed to facilitate OCPD operation, and one can buy monitors or alarms to tell them their freezer is not working if they want. I will admit I find this to be a bigger issue in garages and unfinished basements but may come up more in kitchens with this six foot rule from the sink. I also think I see more missing EGC pins in garages and unfinished basements on such freezers or refrigerators then I typically find in the kitchen - probably because the kitchen does have an outlet in a space that is dedicated for a refrigerator. Garages and basements you are more likely to find extension cords used to connect these appliances.

I'll simply say this - if we had a body or injury count from electrocution and shock from large residential appliances, then we would have GFCI rules for them long before the current 2014 rule existed.

I agree - other then the mentioned garages, unfinished basements, etc. this is not normally much of a problem. And even in those areas maybe not too much of a problem with appliances themselves, but like I said above - that is where you see extension cords being used and then the potential for trouble does increase. In particular extensions that are missing an EGC, or only using a two wire extension and removing the EGC pin from the appliance cord.

When we did allow exceptions for dedicated receptacles to not be GFCI protected, users abused that and figured out that dedicated outlet didn't trip for seemingly minor or meaningless things and would then plug in outlet strips, triple taps, etc. and run everything possible from the non protected outlet. I've seen it done, they don't know what it is protecting them from, they just know it doesn't trip like the other outlets do.

 

[mbrooke]

No matter what I do not see a kitchen fridge likely to end up without an EGC. I will agree people cut off the ground pin for extension cords, but not in kitchens.

 

[romex jockey]

Kind of answered what I was going to say to what I quoted from you above --- many of these code changes in more recent years put the contractor on the hook for a lot of design issues that should be put on some manufacturers. We have to install per code, but reality is what is code puts a lot of inconvenience to users - and they demand the contractors to fix those problems, contractor goes to manufacturer of products involved and gets nowhere when it comes to a solution that will meet codes and make user happy. If something is actually broken or defective that is one thing, but we have products out there that are required to be used and others that don't play well with the required products. And stuff that is changing so fast - things you sold only 5 years ago are now obsolete and you can't find parts or support for them.

True but....

The NEC is going to assume more protective elements , it's just a given weather some of us agree to it all or not Iwire

These all hail from manufacturers , who push them through NRTL's and CMP's

Our appliances and all that interfaces with our electrical installs also hail from manufacturers , who push them through NRTL's , CSPC , NEMA , and all manner of alphabet bureaucracies

If they can not interface in a compliant install , then these entities are not doing their job(s)

If said compliance evolves, they're obligated to address it, not make 'recommendations' , exercise plausible deniability, or otherwise foist the onus of responsibility & liability anywhere but on themselves.

That they demand us to hammer the square peg in the round hole is unacceptable.

~RJ~

 

[jumper]

I agree. Second I looked at the ROPs, the evidence used to support it was incredibly thin imo.

I am curious.

When these ROPs were submitted, did you submit a comment opposing them?

Have you submitted any new proposals for them to be deleted or amended?

 

[mbrooke]

I am curious.

When these ROPs were submitted, did you submit a comment opposing them?

Have you submitted any new proposals for them to be deleted or amended?

Not for the GFCI protection regarding refrigerators and dishwashers. However the evidence submitted to the NFPA appeared to be very weak with no direct proof or correlation. I do find it interesting though that the majority of what gets accepted comes from NEMA or manufacturing reps.

For example people submitted proposals in verbiage changes regarding wire but it was denied. As soon is NEMA says lets change rubber to thermo-plastic to reflect the times it gets done.

 

[ramsy]

Im betting the GFCI doesn't trip either if the plumbing is plastic.

That would be true with a two wire connection but it would trip the gfci with a toaster that has an equipment grounding conductor. You must think of all scenarios not just one case where it may not trip.

No matter what I do not see a kitchen fridge likely to end up without an EGC. I will agree people cut off the ground pin for extension cords, but not in kitchens.

Dennis Alwon's statement was false. While hand-held GFCI testers fail to trip GFCI's, without a grounding conductor to shunt test current, the GFCI device itself only monitors (Hot, Neutral) for imbalance. GFCI's are designed to ignore grounding wires, for use in accordance with 406.4(D)(2), in homes built without grounding wires.

Dennis's information was wrong, and inadvertently perpetuated your confusion between 2 or 3-wire connections. You may have been Punked or punked perhaps the subject of forum entertainment, by those that enjoy burning grasshoppers more than answering their questions.

 

[mbrooke]

Dennis Alwon's statement was false. While hand-held GFCI testers fail to trip GFCI's, without a grounding conductor to shunt test current, the GFCI device itself only monitors (Hot, Neutral) for imbalance. GFCI's are designed to ignore grounding wires, for use in accordance with 406.4(D)(2), in homes built without grounding wires.

Dennis's information was wrong, and inadvertently perpetuated your confusion between 2 or 3-wire connections. You may have been Punked or punked perhaps the subject of forum entertainment, by those that enjoy burning grasshoppers more than answering their questions.

I know how 2 wire and 3 wire systems work in relation to GFCIs and so does Dennis. This place is absolutely insane.

A 2 wire appliance dropped in a sink with no ground path will not trip a GFCI. A 3 wire appliance with an intact EGC back to the panel will trip a GFCI. If the sink itself has a ground path it will trip the GFCI regardless of it being 2 wire or 3 wire.