GFI On raised island counter top

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Re: GFI On raised island counter top

Mike I agree with Scott on both points, you are making this more complicated than necessary :D

And it is not a 'freestanding bar-type counter' I would bet you that thing you want to call a wall relies on the island to stay up, that would mean it is not 'freestanding'.

Now if you can pull that island out of there and the bar-type counter stays put I will agree with you.
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

Originally posted by iwire:

Now if you can pull that island out of there and the bar-type counter stays put I will agree with you.
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Now we are getting some where.

I agree that if this is a cabinet then it is an island and would require only one receptacle.

This is a wall built with a bottom plate and a top plate with 2X4 studs. This wall is nailed to the floor. The counter is installed after the wall is built and a top is installed on top of the wall to make a bar for chairs. The trim is added for looks.

In this installation this is not an island but a counter top with wall space and would need to adhere to the requirements of 210.52(B)(1).

Care needs to be taken by both contractors and inspectors when installing this type of knee wall with counter space.
:)
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

Originally posted by jwelectric:
This is a wall built with a bottom plate and a top plate with 2X4 studs. This wall is nailed to the floor. The counter is installed after the wall is built and a top is installed on top of the wall to make a bar for chairs. The trim is added for looks.
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Mike we have no idea if that is a fact from the picture. It could be but it remains unknown.

In reality not many carpenters would make that a free standing 'wall' as that is a good trick that takes a lot of work to make it strong.

Simply nailing a bottom plate to the sub floor will not make it free standing for very long. :)

Personally the thought of an outlet where peoples feet will be kicking sounds like a bad idea.
:(
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

going back to the island with the chairs....
the next HO may decide to use this for a lamp on a table. Wall space.
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

When I get a chance I will take some pictures of the framing in kitchens around the neighborhood. Some of the peninsulas and islands are in reality counter tops with wall space.

During the framing stage the knee walls are installed with a stiff knee to hold them in place until trim and sometimes they are rocked over.

It is my opinion that these are in fact countertops that have wall space and should be treated as such.

If they were installed with cabinets then I agree that they are islands and peninsulas and would require only one receptacle.

What say ye one what say ye all.
:)
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

i have seen sections like that in commercial work. hidden under the decorative wood is a steel post. to support the WALL. :p
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

I don't care what it is built of. An island is an island.


We do many large custom homes, and right on the Kitchen Plans, is an "Island".
These "Islands" might be built with cabinets, framing, or a combination.

Having more than what is required is a design issue.
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

A while ago I proposed that a 2 ft. wall under a 4 gang as you entered a kitchen shouldn`t have to comply with thw 2 ft. rule .To say it mildly I was kicked to the curb on that one.
What that picture showa is an island with a knee wall within a kitchen,that said WHAT`S THE DIFFERENCE :roll: A raised back splash requires spacing as if it is a full wall.The rear knee wall also requires spacing as if it was a full sized wall.
Now if the whole dam thing was on wheels I would agree no receptacles required but that isn`t the case here a permanently fixed wall/island must adhere to the same rules as the rest of the kitchen
Why else would there be a provision that if there is no splash that the required ones can be placed 20 in. above or within 12 in below.
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

I think that using the unlimited definition of "island" means that the countertop is no longer just a countertop, it could in fact be a whole nookish eating area with one area seeming to be a countertop. The "island' could be 50 or 60 square feet of (seperated from walls)construction, maybe even more, with all types of levels. I think that using the unlimited definition of countertop/island will require rethinking receptacles location. The AHJ has as much right to require that there be extra outlets as the contractor does to argue that this is still a counter/island. This is one that the AHJ should catch at plan check, but sometimes the cabinet design isn't always finished when no inspectable elements are involved (lights, plumbing) and the EC has to fix the location with countertop re-design mandates backsplash receptacles.

I think that once you go beyond the "counter-space" concept of island, more outlets are going to be required. If I were the contractor, not just the EC, I would want it ON the plans what outlet location was acceptable if design was pushing the concept. Crying afterwards may get others to feel sorry for you, but the design should have been raising questions about what should be done, not what can be got away with.

What's going to happen when the island becomes a nook with an entertainmaint center, small office counter space (seperate) for the computer and printer. But it's still an island, and the highest counter doesn't have a backsplash.????

Too bad we can't agree on what common sense is, then things like this might be easy.

paul :D
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

IMO, until the CODE (the proposers) specifies what an island or a wall is, it should be up to the AHJ. With regard to the AHJ, the interpretation should be based on the rule not the exception.
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I think that this island would be required to comply with the 2 foot rule.
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Originally posted by iwire:
I do not see 'wall space' in either of your pictures.

They both clearly show islands.

Island
Function: noun
1 : a tract of land surrounded by water and smaller than a continent

2 : something resembling an island especially in its isolated or surrounded position
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Main Entry: wall
Pronunciation: 'wol

Function: noun

2 : one of the sides of a room or building connecting floor and ceiling or foundation and roof
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:cool: [/QB]
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The dictionary definition of wall space is irrelevant when the NEC provides a definition. The NEC can call water dry and we have to accept it.

210.52(A)(2)(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as free-standing bar-type counters or railings
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Freestanding, IMO, simply means not connected to a wall.

To the non-kitchen side of this island-like creation, we have a wall, requiring outlets every 6 and 12 just like any other.

So, the countertop attached to the other side of this wall is technically "wall counter space." It's counter space attached to what the NEC defines as a wall.

Believe you me, I was initially on the "it's an island" camp. I don't think so as of this time.

[ December 18, 2005, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

Originally posted by georgestolz:
The dictionary definition of wall space is irrelevant when the NEC provides a definition. The NEC can call water dry and we have to accept it.
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Very true, I agree with you.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
210.52(A)(2)(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as free-standing bar-type counters or railings
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Freestanding, IMO, simply means not connected to a wall.
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You are certainly entitled to that opinion as I am entitled to my opinion of freestanding is something that can stand on it's own.

From your own link

standing apart; not attached to or supported by anything; "a freestanding bell tower"; "a house with a separate garage"
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The section of 'wall' can not likely stand on it's own.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
So, the countertop attached to the other side of this wall is technically "wall counter space."
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That is a fine opinion but do not present it as a 'code fact'. As I mentioned to Mike the only person that will get to make that call would be the local inspector.

Originally posted by georgestolz:
It's counter space attached to what the NEC defines as a wall.
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Or is it just something that resembles a wall attached to an island?
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

walls do not need to be free standing to be walls, only counters need to be freestanding to be islands. If a wall is attached to an island and uses the island for support, there is nothing in the NEC or other building codes that says this wall is, in fact, not a wall. Freestanding is only required for the island.

And some others have held, there is then wall spacing for outlets.

paul :cool:
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

Originally posted by apauling:
walls do not need to be free standing to be walls, only counters need to be freestanding to be islands.
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:D

Yeah OK if you want to ruin all my fun.

How are we going to get to a 1000 posts?
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

As I have said in my view both pictures are islands. One has a lowered area for seating, one receptacle required. One has a raised area for seating, one receptacle required. The wall :p
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

As a person who replies here, I like you, have an opinion... it is just that, an opinion. This situation will really be decided from jurisdiction to jurisdiction by the AHJ.


My opinion... this is an island.
If I were inspecting, my "bottom line" is safety. The "area" where the chairs are, is not going to be used as wall space, it is similar to the area where you put your chairs at the dining table... would you see the need for a receptacle there? Lets try to be a little realistic, using our years of experience here.


Bob
just trying to help this thread to a 1000 :)
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

Originally posted by iwire:
Originally posted by georgestolz:
So, the countertop attached to the other side of this wall is technically "wall counter space."
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That is a fine opinion but do not present it as a 'code fact'.
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That was not my intention, I apologize for not throwing an "IMO" on that one. The last sentence of my post was designed to show me on the fence, I guess it didn't quite work. :)
 
Re: GFI On raised island counter top

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I apologize for not throwing an "IMO" on that one.
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No problem, Paul stopped me in my tracks anyway so that line of argument was dead. :D
 
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