GFI Requirement?

[infinity]

Maybe you just need to approach those scenarios with a different outlook.

It's not your job to answer all those questions.
If you're an inspector you're job is to inspect and see that the installation is up to code.

Instead of asking more questions and offering advice as to how the install should be for every different scenario, try not offering any advise at all.

Let them install it incorrectly and keep making them take it out and redo it until they either get it right, call a qualified electrician, or run out of money.

JAP>

Actually here in NJ as a sub-code official you're supposed to help. :slaphead:

 

[kwired]

I agree.

But based strictly on post #1 would the answer be yes or no to GFI protection being required?

Mine would be no.

JAP>

10x13sqft residential addition used for show dog grooming (not a business). Los Angeles County. Drywalled including ceiling. Bare concrete floor but sealed. Are GFI outlets required?

Based entirely what was mentioned in post #1, all I can answer with is maybe, maybe not. Nothing in there says definitely yes, but is potential for items to be present that may at least require GFCI in portions of that addition.

 

[Little Bill]

If they're going to wash dogs in there, then it's required. Also as small as the room is, some will likely be as close to as 6 ft of the sink.

On a side note. If their is more then one groomer. I would want two circuits for blow dryers

What code section would require that?

Jap>

Let's try within 6' of a sink for starters.

A sink was never mentioned in the original post.

Just dog grooming area.

JAP>

You quoted Buck with his answer and he mentioned "wash" and "sink" then you ask what code required that. I was replying to you asking Buck, I was saying IF there was a sink and it was close enough.

I never said the OP definitely needed GFCI, just answering what would require it in Buck's post that you ask about.

 

[jap]

I was saying IF

That's where the wheels always start falling off.

Strictly going by post #1 I would still say not required.

JAP>

 

[cowboyjwc]

Maybe you just need to approach those scenarios with a different outlook.

It's not your job to answer all those questions.
If you're an inspector you're job is to inspect and see that the installation is up to code.

Instead of asking more questions and offering advice as to how the install should be for every different scenario, try not offering any advise at all.

Let them install it incorrectly and keep making them take it out and redo it until they either get it right, call a qualified electrician, or run out of money.

JAP>

Done that too. Had a guy rewire an 1200 sq ft medical suite four times before he got it right. There does come a time when the answer is "please seek professional help".

 

[cowboyjwc]

Actually here in NJ as a sub-code official you're supposed to help. :slaphead:

Us too, but you can't save them from them self. Some BO's love handouts and mine kept wanting me to make them and I told him no, because if we give them only part of the information they'll tell us that was how we said to do it. I once gave my guys a quiz: If you were to put a receptacle down below the existing panel using #12 MC cable, how many code sections apply? I don't remember now and now it's actually more but the answer was about 85. Now you have to think outside the box to get there.

 

[jap]

Done that too. Had a guy rewire an 1200 sq ft medical suite four times before he got it right. There does come a time when the answer is "please seek professional help".

Now that's funny.
Probably said with a little despair in your voice. :lol:

I'm with ya.

Jap>

 

[DrSparks]

Just buy the gfcis. They're $10 LOL

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[LarryFine]

What about 210.8(A)(2)?

 

[ptonsparky]

Just buy the gfcis. They're $10 LOL...

My thoughts entirely, well not quite, but close.

If you’re (OP) asking, you already think it would be a good idea. Remember the NEC is a minimum.

 

[kwired]

What if OP puts in the GFCI's but later finds out that AHJ is going to consider this a space that needs to comply with 210.52 and/or even require AFCI's?

Bottom line is not enough information to give a definite answer. "Dog grooming room" is not mentioned in 210.8. That don't mean the space can't have other conditions that will trigger GFCI requirements.

 

[DrSparks]

What if OP puts in the GFCI's but later finds out that AHJ is going to consider this a space that needs to comply with 210.52 and/or even require AFCI's?

Bottom line is not enough information to give a definite answer. "Dog grooming room" is not mentioned in 210.8. That don't mean the space can't have other conditions that will trigger GFCI requirements.

Why would the need for afci protection have anything to do with GFCI?

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[kwired]

Why would the need for afci protection have anything to do with GFCI?

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Makes about as much sense as the speculation of what may require GFCI - this was at a dwelling so that possibility of needing AFCI is also there.

All we know from OP is he has an addition to a dwelling that they are calling a dog grooming room. We have no other details on this and have no idea what may or may not be required. For all we know it could meet the definition of a bathroom or a kitchen and have other requirements related to those spaces.

So the correct response to "is GFCI protection needed" is the asking of more questions otherwise the only other answer is "maybe".

 

[Jamesco]

These are the kinds of questions that drive inspectors crazy. Can I run plastic pipe out to my barn and run wire through it? Yes you can. Then you get out there and the pipe is six inches down and they pulled NMC through it and it's got five 90's. Guess I should have asked some more questions.

Maybe it is just a room. Maybe they wash the dogs in the bathroom tub or outside, but since we don't know the real answer is "maybe".

What if you were the inspector for this job?

You show up for the final electrical inspection.
The room walls and ceiling are finished and painted. (Not that you would particularly care if they were painted or not.)
Floor is bare concrete poured on grade.
You notice vinyl base is installed around the walls of the room at the wall to concrete floor.
You ask the electrician what is the intended purpose for the use of this room?
Response, for the grooming of the property owner's show dogs?

Bare concrete floor.
Will the concrete floor be washed down using water and a mop?
Will the bare concrete soak up water when it is washed?
As an electrical inspector in LA CA there is a good chance you will know the LA building codes if steel wire or rebar is required in the concrete slab pour.

Receptacles in the room are not GFCI protected.

Just curious would you pass the non GFCI protected receptacle outlets or flag, fail, the final inspection telling the electrician the outlets need to be GFCI protected?

NEC 210.8(2)&(6)


http://www.arpnjournals.org/jeas/research_papers/rp_2016/jeas_0516_4215.pdf

 

[jap]

You show up for the final electrical inspection.

You left out about 4 or 5 steps prior to this.

Pulling a permit,,,, intended use up front,,, roughin inspection,,,,,, and so one.

You don't just show up for final inspection.


JAP>

 

[Jamesco]

You left out about 4 or 5 steps prior to this.

Pulling a permit,,,, intended use up front,,, roughin inspection,,,,,, and so one.

You don't just show up for final inspection.


JAP>

When was the last time you called for a final where a permit was not pulled, all rough in inspections were not signed off by the electrical inspector, and so on?

Anticipating your next question, the electrical inspector that normally does the inspections, for this area of town, is off on vacation for two weeks. The inspector that showed up is taking care of the area until the regular inspector returns from vacation.

After the inspector shows up on the job he/she may look over the job first or he/she may ask the electrician to show him/her where the building permit is posted. The inspector looks at the permit looking to make sure all electrical rough-in inspections are checked off, initialed and dated, by the electrical inspector.

 

[jap]

When was the last time you called for a final where a permit was not pulled, all rough in inspections were not signed off by the electrical inspector, and so on?

Anticipating your next question, the electrical inspector that normally does the inspections, for this area of town, is off on vacation for two weeks. The inspector that showed up is taking care of the area until the regular inspector returns from vacation.

After the inspector shows up on the job he/she may look over the job first or he/she may ask the electrician to show him/her where the building permit is posted. The inspector looks at the permit looking to make sure all electrical rough-in inspections are checked off, initialed and dated, by the electrical inspector.

You could speculate this dog grooming thing into the Taj Mahal if you want to.
Although I don't know why we are.

Nothing else better to talk about I guess.

JAP>

 

[jap]

Let's say all the inspections are done, the COO has been given and approved for the dog grooming business for it's intended use without GFI protection.
There's no sinks, tubs, spraying of water or any mention of such.

2 days later the owner rolls a portable power washer into the room to spray the dog piss off of the sealed concrete.

As soon as he pulls the trigger on the wand and starts spraying water, does an alarm automatically go off at cowboy's house in the middle of the night that will prompt him to go to the residence and throw a red flag in the yard while he's driving by with a note on it that reads "Please seek professional help" ?

Doubtful.

You can only inspect and make requirements on intended use, not speculation of what there may or may not be.

IF that intended use happens to change during the process of construction, while the inspector is involved, he has every right to deny final inspection as he see's fit.

JAP>

 

[Jamesco]

You could speculate this dog grooming thing into the Taj Mahal if you want to.
Although I don't know why we are.

Nothing else better to talk about I guess.

JAP>

No speculation on my part.

 

[jap]

No speculation on my part.

So to turn the question around, what would you do?

If you failed me for not having GFI protection where GFI protection was not required I'd have your job.

JAP>