GFI Requirement?

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jap said:
So to turn the question around, what would you do?

If you failed me for not having GFI protection where GFI protection was not required I'd have your job.

JAP>
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Would it be asking to much of you to wait for a response from cowboyjwc to respond to my post #54?
 
Jamesco said:
What if you were the inspector for this job?

You show up for the final electrical inspection.
The room walls and ceiling are finished and painted. (Not that you would particularly care if they were painted or not.)
Floor is bare concrete poured on grade.
You notice vinyl base is installed around the walls of the room at the wall to concrete floor.
You ask the electrician what is the intended purpose for the use of this room?
Response, for the grooming of the property owner's show dogs?

Bare concrete floor.
Will the concrete floor be washed down using water and a mop?
Will the bare concrete soak up water when it is washed?
As an electrical inspector in LA CA there is a good chance you will know the LA building codes if steel wire or rebar is required in the concrete slab pour.

Receptacles in the room are not GFCI protected.

Just curious would you pass the non GFCI protected receptacle outlets or flag, fail, the final inspection telling the electrician the outlets need to be GFCI protected?

NEC 210.8(2)&(6)


http://www.arpnjournals.org/jeas/research_papers/rp_2016/jeas_0516_4215.pdf
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A concrete floor does not trigger GFCI requirements. Many places that require GFCI protection however seem to commonly have concrete floors.

If you had a foyer with either ceramic tiles on concrete or stamped, dyed, etc. concrete - and it was on grade - no GFCI protection is required though it is a fairly conductive floor.
 
jap said:
So to turn the question around, what would you do?

If you failed me for not having GFI protection where GFI protection was not required I'd have your job.

JAP>
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Wishful thinking at best :)

That would be a REAL stretch in any jurisdiction with which I have had an association.

Inspectors, especially those working for a government agency, seldom loose their job over a cal,l especially a "judgement" call. You might huff and puff to his boss who MIGHT even take your side until you leave the office then he and the inspector will have a cup of coffee and discuss what name best describes you. Been there, done that too many times.
 
augie47 said:
Wishful thinking at best :)

That would be a REAL stretch in any jurisdiction with which I have had an association.

Inspectors, especially those working for a government agency, seldom loose their job over a cal,l especially a "judgement" call. You might huff and puff to his boss who MIGHT even take your side until you leave the office then he and the inspector will have a cup of coffee and discuss what name best describes you. Been there, done that too many times.
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It's not a stretch
I'm speaking from experience.

You can only make so many bad calls and be complained about so many times by multiple contractors before even an inspector looses his job.

Jap>
 
But I agree as far as my statement about that on this subject.

Probably a little over the top.

Jap>
 
Inspectors can't let non-compliant work pass inspection for fear of losing their job. In my opinion, t's as wrong to fail work improperly as it is to pass work improperly.
 
kwired said:
A concrete floor does not trigger GFCI requirements. Many places that require GFCI protection however seem to commonly have concrete floors.
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I agree. I believe the implied intent of the NEC is on grade or below grade floor is concrete.


The OP wants to know if NEC requires GFCI protection for the convenience receptacle outlets in the room.


Is the room considered a habitable room?
Does the room meet the requirements of 210.8(A)(2) & (6)?


How would you wire the room? Does the room meet the requirements of 210.8(A)(2) and or (6)?



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Jamesco said:
I agree. I believe the implied intent of the NEC is on grade or below grade floor is concrete.


The OP wants to know if NEC requires GFCI protection for the convenience receptacle outlets in the room.


Is the room considered a habitable room?
Does the room meet the requirements of 210.8(A)(2) & (6)?


How would you wire room? Does the room meet the requirements of 210.8(A)(2) and or (6)?
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Again presence of concrete floor, even if on/below grade is not a determining factor of whether GFCI protection is required. Many situations mentioned in 210.8 the need GFCI protection are areas that typically have on/below grade concrete floors though, but the determination we use to decide if we must supply GFCI doesn't include asking if there is a concrete floor - we look to see if we have conditions mentioned in 210.8. NEC code making members have likely considered the dangers of a conductive floor when making the rules we do have, but still have so far given us specific situations where GFCI is needed and no rule that says anytime there is a conductive floor we need GFCI.

Until OP gives us a details that include situations that require GFCI - no GFCI is required. Even a room that is "finished" in a basement but has bare concrete floor doesn't require GFCI. If you build on a room similar to what OP described and make it your laundry room, GFCI would only be required within six feet of any sink you may have.
 
“Implied intent” is not enforceable.
Stained concrete floors in finished basements are starting to catch on around here. GFCI is not required.

Would it be a good idea...meh maybe.
 
kwired said:
Again presence of concrete floor, even if on/below grade is not a determining factor of whether GFCI protection is required. Many situations mentioned in 210.8 the need GFCI protection are areas that typically have on/below grade concrete floors though, but the determination we use to decide if we must supply GFCI doesn't include asking if there is a concrete floor - we look to see if we have conditions mentioned in 210.8. NEC code making members have likely considered the dangers of a conductive floor when making the rules we do have, but still have so far given us specific situations where GFCI is needed and no rule that says anytime there is a conductive floor we need GFCI.

Until OP gives us a details that include situations that require GFCI - no GFCI is required. Even a room that is "finished" in a basement but has bare concrete floor doesn't require GFCI. If you build on a room similar to what OP described and make it your laundry room, GFCI would only be required within six feet of any sink you may have.
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What is a habitable room as defined by NEC? You won't find it in Art 100.
What is the intent of 210.8?




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Jamesco said:
What is a habitable room as defined by NEC? You won't find it in Art 100.
What is the intent of 210.8?




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I agree habitable room isn't defined by NEC. Habitable isn't a term used in 210.8, it does appear elsewhere in NEC and can trigger some other requirements like 210.70(A)(1).

210.8 is nothing more then the general requirements for GFCI protection - mostly just for 15/20 amp 125 volt general use receptacles, though they have slipped boat hoists and dishwashers in there. Specific GFCI requirements are scattered out among the applications they apply to - swimming pools is one that commonly has GFCI rules above and beyond the general rules of 210.8.

"Dog grooming room" doesn't appear in 210.8. Conditions that one may encounter in said dog grooming room may kick in some of the 210.8 GFCI requirements though.

If one has a small salon attached to their house (I've seen this a few times, though they were "for profit" and probably could be called non dwelling areas) it could be in many ways similar to the dog grooming room. In fact several years ago GFCI wasn't exactly needed near the sink(s) though many put them there anyway. But in comparison to the dog grooming - one could have a wash area that is just a tub/shower like place in just one small area - that doesn't make the entire space an indoor wet location and GFCI would only be required in the area that is deemed to be an indoor wet location - though that term isn't used in the 210.8(A) section for dwellings(OP said not a business).
 
kwired said:
I agree habitable room isn't defined by NEC. Habitable isn't a term used in 210.8, it does appear elsewhere in NEC and can trigger some other requirements like 210.70(A)(1).

210.8 is nothing more then the general requirements for GFCI protection - mostly just for 15/20 amp 125 volt general use receptacles, though they have slipped boat hoists and dishwashers in there. Specific GFCI requirements are scattered out among the applications they apply to - swimming pools is one that commonly has GFCI rules above and beyond the general rules of 210.8.

"Dog grooming room" doesn't appear in 210.8. Conditions that one may encounter in said dog grooming room may kick in some of the 210.8 GFCI requirements though.

If one has a small salon attached to their house (I've seen this a few times, though they were "for profit" and probably could be called non dwelling areas) it could be in many ways similar to the dog grooming room. In fact several years ago GFCI wasn't exactly needed near the sink(s) though many put them there anyway. But in comparison to the dog grooming - one could have a wash area that is just a tub/shower like place in just one small area - that doesn't make the entire space an indoor wet location and GFCI would only be required in the area that is deemed to be an indoor wet location - though that term isn't used in the 210.8(A) section for dwellings(OP said not a business).
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I agree habitable room isn't defined by NEC. Habitable isn't a term used in 210.8,
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Sure it is. "not intended as habitable rooms"
Do you classify a dog grooming room as a habitable area, room?

210.8(A)(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade leveland limited to storage areas, work areas and areas as similar use.

Dog grooming too. "work areas and areas as similar use."



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Jamesco said:
Sure it is. "not intended as habitable rooms"
Do you classify a dog grooming room as a habitable area, room?

210.8(A)(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade leveland limited to storage areas, work areas and areas as similar use.

Dog grooming too. "work areas and areas as similar use."



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I understand the OP has a room added onto a dwelling which has a concrete floor that is on grade. 210.8(A)(2) does not apply to it as it is not a garage or an accessory building. We do know the owner intends to use the space as a dog grooming room for their own use and not as a business.

It is also not an an unfinished basement as it is not below or even partially below grade.

For the umpteenth time - there is not enough information to state that GFCI's must be used.

There is also not enough information to state that this is a room that is subject to any particular part of 210.52 or even whether AFCI protection is required.
 
kwired said:
I understand the OP has a room added onto a dwelling which has a concrete floor that is on grade. 210.8(A)(2) does not apply to it as it is not a garage or an accessory building. We do know the owner intends to use the space as a dog grooming room for their own use and not as a business.

It is also not an an unfinished basement as it is not below or even partially below grade.

For the umpteenth time - there is not enough information to state that GFCI's must be used.

There is also not enough information to state that this is a room that is subject to any particular part of 210.52 or even whether AFCI protection is required.
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210.8(A)(2) does not apply to it as it is not a garage or an accessory building. We do know the owner intends to use the space as a dog grooming room for their own use and not as a business.
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Lol, make up your mind.

Post 27
Kwired said:
From 210.8(A)(2):"Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use"

Seems most would call this an area covered by this section.
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Odd, if you were not among the, most would call this an area covered by this section, why didn't you say then #(2) did not apply?

kwired said:
For the umpteenth time - there is not enough information to state that GFCI's must be used.
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The OP, I believe, will not be a participating any further in this thread. I think he pretty much made that quite clear. He also made clear he would install a duplex GFCI recept and feed the rest of the outlets from it. Smart move in my opinion, required or not.

If I get a chance this week I will call the LA Inspection Dept and ask an inspector if GFCI protection is required for the room. I will use the same info as given in the OPs original posted message.

>>>>

Correction:

I read a post where 210.8(B) (5) & (6) were cited. (Post #23)
Others posted in response to the use of #(5) and some to using #(6) for requiring GFCI protection.

I entered the discussion at post #54

I read 210.8(A)(2) and found myself agreeing with Kwired, post #27.
I wrongly used #(6) Indoor Wet Locations.
#(6) is part of 210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
I am using 2017 NEC now and jumped from 210.8(A)(2) side of the page to the right hand side of the page and totally missed (B) at the bottom of the page. My bad....

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Jamesco said:
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Lol, make up your mind.

Post 27
Kwired said:

Odd, if you were not among the, most would call this an area covered by this section, why didn't you say then #(2) did not apply?


The OP, I believe, will not be a participating any further in this thread. I think he pretty much made that quite clear. He also made clear he would install a duplex GFCI recept and feed the rest of the outlets from it. Smart move in my opinion, required or not.

If I get a chance this week I will call the LA Inspection Dept and ask an inspector if GFCI protection is required for the room. I will use the same info as given in the OPs original posted message.

>>>>

Correction:

I read a post where 210.8(B) (5) & (6) were cited. (Post #23)
Others posted in response to the use of #(5) and some to using #(6) for requiring GFCI protection.

I entered the discussion at post #54

I read 210.8(A)(2) and found myself agreeing with Kwired, post #27.
I wrongly used #(6) Indoor Wet Locations.
#(6) is part of 210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
I am using 2017 NEC now and jumped from 210.8(A)(2) side of the page to the right hand side of the page and totally missed (B) at the bottom of the page. My bad....

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Sorry if there was any inconsistency. Post 27 was about 50 posts ago, I don't know what was going on there then and did not go back to see either. I could have just plain been wrong about something, taken something in the wrong way or who knows what.

I'm about done with this thread myself I think we have beaten the dead horse enough.
 
Jamesco said:
I am using 2017 NEC now and jumped /QUOTE]

If you look back you'll noticed you jumped on a lot of folks in this thread.

It may be a good idea to install GFI protection whether it was needed or not, but, whether it was required or not base solely on the information we had was what the discussion was about.

You jumped on me somewhere around post 54 and told me to keep quiet until Cowboy chimed back in so you could jump on him before jumping on K-wired in the last post.

JAP>
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