Goal for AFCI Protection

[electricguy61]

I've made this argument before and I will keep making it. Show me a statistic that tells you how many lives are saved by GFCI's every year. You will never find it, because those cases aren't reported. We can probably tell you how many people died, because they didn't have a GFCI somewhere. As was brought up before. How many millions of homes don't have AFCI's. If half of the homes that have AFCI's did not catch fire because of these devices, first you would never know and second, it wouldn't make a dent in the stats.

Personally, I see a tremendous difference between GFCI's and AFCI's. I can go to a customers home, and readily show them a problem with an appliance, tool, etc. that is causing the GFCI to trip using a multimeter or megger. I can show them that this device can save their life. I can tell them of personal experiences where bad cords being used in wet grass were tripping the GFCI, or why that old mixer in the kitchen or that old blow dryer in the bathroom should be replaced.

I cannot do the same thing with AFCI's. I can't show them why their vacuum cleaner, cell phone charger, or fluorescent lights aren't safe. I can only say: I'm sorry, but these are known problems with the breakers I have to install in your home.

 

[electricguy61]

Here in Ventura County it's 0 sq ft and above.

I didn't write that well: all new homes; and all remodels over a certain square footage or cost.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Personally, I see a tremendous difference between GFCI's and AFCI's. I can go to a customers home, and readily show them a problem with an appliance, tool, etc. that is causing the GFCI to trip using a multimeter or megger. I can show them that this device can save their life. I can tell them of personal experiences where bad cords being used in wet grass were tripping the GFCI, or why that old mixer in the kitchen or that old blow dryer in the bathroom should be replaced.

I cannot do the same thing with AFCI's. I can't show them why their vacuum cleaner, cell phone charger, or fluorescent lights aren't safe. I can only say: I'm sorry, but these are known problems with the breakers I have to install in your home.

Sure you could, you could leave whatever is tripping the AFCI plugged in and then after a certain amount of time you can either prove why it's good to have AFCI's or smoke alarms.

 

[GoldDigger]

Sure you could, you could leave whatever is tripping the AFCI plugged in and then after a certain amount of time you can either prove why it's good to have AFCI's or smoke alarms.

True if the AFCI was detecting an actual arc or ground fault. But in some cases it is just reacting to the signature of a particular type of motor or electronics the industry has not caught up with yet.
Your point that if you do not know what is causing, you should assume that it is real is well taken, up to a point.
This is the sort of application where the remote AFCI tester proprietary to one breaker manufacturer, mentioned a few month ago, is worth its cost. Even if all is does is save you walks back to the breaker while testing.

 

[electricguy61]

Sure you could, you could leave whatever is tripping the AFCI plugged in and then after a certain amount of time you can either prove why it's good to have AFCI's or smoke alarms.

Mr. Childress, I respectfully disagree. Somehow those cell phone chargers, fluorescent lights, vacuum cleaners and all the other appliances/devices that trip AFCI's have worked for 20 years and not burned down the house(s) yet.

I'll grant you, when I first trim out a home, and have an AFCI trip before anything is plugged in, it might (operative word might) prove useful if a wire was pierced by a nail. After that, they're just the cause of extreme consternation.

I believe in crash helmets, seat belts, smoke detectors, gun locks, daylight driving lights, etc, but not AFCI's

 

[cowboyjwc]

.... My point is you, nor I, have no idea what might start a fire.

And neither do most of the people who fill out a dwelling unit fire cause report.


Sorry to everyone...I hit edit when I intended to hit reply with quote....

Maybe John can restore his original comment.

 

[cowboyjwc]

True if the AFCI was detecting an actual arc or ground fault. But in some cases it is just reacting to the signature of a particular type of motor or electronics the industry has not caught up with yet .
Your point that if you do not know what is causing, you should assume that it is real is well taken, up to a point.
This is the sort of application where the remote AFCI tester proprietary to one breaker manufacturer, mentioned a few month ago, is worth its cost. Even if all is does is save you walks ba ck to the breaker while testing.

And I won't say that's not true about the industry. I'm sure you've said before, but I don't recall, how long you've been in the trades, but anyone that remembers when GFCI were introduced in the 70's that they used to have about a 70% fail rate right out of the box. That combined with the fact that they barely fit in a handi box made them a real nightmare to deal with. Now every contractor worth their salt uses them as an upsell and in the 70's we were doing the same thing some guys are doing with the AFCI's, they were just there to pass inspection.

 

[electricguy61]

Now I disagree, you don't know that one of those devices hasn't burned a house down. I went on a fire (I get called out with the arson guys sometimes) where the pump for a fish tank burned the whole first floor of a house. We all agreed that's what it was. Pump had been there for ????. Now would an AFCI have stopped that? Maybe yes, maybe no. Even with an AFCI once the fault has happened it may have been enough to start a fire. My point is you, nor I, have no idea what might start a fire.

If the house was sprinklered, it almost definitely would not have burned the whole first floor. If there wasn't a fish tank, it wouldn't have burned either. The arguments could go on ad nauseam.

The point is: are AFCI's the "fire stoppers" they have been sold as? It certainly hasn't been proven to my satisfaction. The electrical manufacturers found a way to charge 10x the cost of a standard breaker, and ensured everyone had to buy the largest panels available. We have a hard time even obtaining AFCI breakers up here in San Jose. Twice in the last year when I went to trim out a large custom home, we couldn't buy the AFCI's, the supply houses and big box stores were out of stock. How about the heat build up, where the breakers have a tendency to trip each other out on thermal overload. Not to mention the ghost tripping.

As you can tell, you've hit a nerve with me.:happysad:

And thanks for your help in hitting 700 posts!

 

[cowboyjwc]

If the house was sprinklered, it almost definitely would not have burned the whole first floor. If there wasn't a fish tank, it wouldn't have burned either. The arguments could go on ad nauseam.

The point is: are AFCI's the "fire stoppers" they have been sold as? It certainly hasn't been proven to my satisfaction. The electrical manufacturers found a way to charge 10x the cost of a standard breaker, and ensured everyone had to buy the largest panels available. We have a hard time even obtaining AFCI breakers up here in San Jose. Twice in the last year when I went to trim out a large custom home, we couldn't buy the AFCI's, the supply houses and big box stores were out of stock. How about the heat build up, where the breakers have a tendency to trip each other out on thermal overload. Not to mention the ghost tripping.

As you can tell, you've hit a nerve with me.:happysad:

And thanks for your help in hitting 700 posts !

That's all I was trying to do. I could see you were close. And it sounds like you're pretty lucky that I didn't take that job in San Jose when it was offered to me. :lol:

 

[electricguy61]

That's all I was trying to do. I could see you were close. And it sounds like you're pretty lucky that I didn't take that job in San Jose when it was offered to me. :lol:

:thumbsup:

 

[electricguy61]

Actually, I get along great with the vast majority of inspectors. Do the job right (to code and local requirements) and everyone gets along famously.

I admit to a problem with non-thinkers though.

 

[templdl]

I've made this argument before and I will keep making it. Show me a statistic that tells you how many lives are saved by GFCI's every year. You will never find it, because those cases aren't reported. We can probably tell you how many people died, because they didn't have a GFCI somewhere. As was brought up before. How many millions of homes don't have AFCI's. If half of the homes that have AFCI's did not catch fire because of these devices, first you would never know and second, it wouldn't make a dent in the stats.

That's what disappoints me. I'm a believed in the technology but extremely disappointed that there are little if any or no statistics to back up their required use. I was expecting a significant impact in the reduction of fires and loss of life. As I mentioned before I would think the insurance companies would be all over promoting AFCIs like flies on s***. But it's like they doesn't even exist to an insurance company.
I believe in the product and the technology but I am totally in agreement with you that I am not aware of any documented benefit of their use other than tripping after their installation should there be a wiring issue. Otherwise is it a great technology that really is of no practical use.

 

[arknack]

If I remember correctly, not too long ago there was a thread on how unreliable GFCI have become. I can't wait until the AFCIs become established so manufactures can start producing them over sea. They can then be as reliable as GFCIs with the great UL label on them. Sorry, but I'm a believer that NEC is now in the pocket of the manufactures also.

 

[kwired]

And I won't say that's not true about the industry. I'm sure you've said before, but I don't recall, how long you've been in the trades, but anyone that remembers when GFCI were introduced in the 70's that they used to have about a 70% fail rate right out of the box. That combined with the fact that they barely fit in a handi box made them a real nightmare to deal with. Now every contractor worth their salt uses them as an upsell and in the 70's we were doing the same thing some guys are doing with the AFCI's, they were just there to pass inspection.

When GFCI was first introduced, it was required in very limited areas - maybe just bathroom receptacles at first. There wasn't as much impact from what appears to be nuisance tripping as there was with AFCI which were required in bedrooms when first introduced where a bigger variety of loads for possible false tripping are more common.

The GFCI had some challenges at times, but most people learned what wiring mistakes were made that caused unwanted tripping. Some of this has happened with AFCI's but there is also a pretty complex signature pattern that from what I understand is not necessarily the same from one manufacturer to another. How is that for a uniform standard for a product? GFCI is much simpler, 4-6 mA of current outside the intended path is supposed to trip the device, and there is not much more to it than that for the base function of the unit. Inductive kickback does create additional problems, but the reputable manufacturers have solved that pretty well, and AFAIK all with very similar methods.

 

[peter d]

I can't wait until the AFCIs become established so manufactures can start producing them over sea.

They already are, to an extent. GE are made in the USA - sort of. Puerto Rico to be exact. Eaton/Cutler Hammer are made in the Dominican Republic and Square D and Siemens are made in Mexico.

 

[templdl]

They already are, to an extent. GE are made in the USA - sort of. Puerto Rico to be exact. Eaton/Cutler Hammer are made in the Dominican Republic and Square D and Siemens are made in Mexico.

I don't know if they still are but I was told by a confidential source that the GE AFCIs were name branded by a major manufacturer. I have not worked for that manufacturer for 13 years but treated that knowledge confidentially as I do now. But back around 2000 I know that GE did not make their of AFCIs. SqD and C-H were the only two manufactures that were in the race to develop the technology and get their AFCI on the market. I don't believe that GE ever developed their own AFCI.
When it comes down to it does it really matter?

 

[peter d]

I don't know if they still are but I was told by a confidential source that the GE AFCIs were name branded by a major manufacturer. I have not worked for that manufacturer for 13 years but treated that knowledge confidentially as I do now. But back around 2000 I know that GE did not make their of AFCIs. SqD and C-H were the only two manufactures that were in the race to develop the technology and get their AFCI on the market. I don't believe that GE ever developed their own AFCI.
When it comes down to it does it really matter?

When the AFCI's first came out, the GE ones were simply Siemens ones they rebranded. Is that what you're referring to? Now, the GE ones have the same design as the normal GE THQL breakers and bear no resemblance to a Siemens product so I'm assuming they designed their own now?

 

[templdl]

When the AFCI's first came out, the GE ones were simply Siemens ones they rebranded. Is that what you're referring to? Now, the GE ones have the same design as the normal GE THQL breakers and bear no resemblance to a Siemens product so I'm assuming they designed their own now?

It's a matter of the cost of the R&D required to develop a product verses simply purchasing the product from a competitor. Quite often it really isn't a matter of a competitive advantage but assuring that you have a complete product line. If it makes more sense cost wise to purchase a product from a competitor and have them manufacture and name branded for you then that's what is done. Products really aren't sacred unless a specific product provides a competitive advantage that would differentiate you from the competition. Basically they are simply commodities.
I can't recall any other but two manufactures that developed the AFCI technology at first. It was actually a race as to whom would get the product on the market first.

 

[DangerousSafety]

interesting

interesting

Reading this thread with interest, as my employer is having us look into design changes to some products to emit conducted noise 'outside' of the known AFCI signatures. Really messy when you also must consider CISPR22/FCC class B limits.

The only documentation that I am aware of that indicates arc-fault detection could have/would have prevented the burn down is the PV studies done by UL and UNM. For those that must live with article 690, note UL subject 1699B.

 

[GoldDigger]

The only documentation that I am aware of that indicates arc-fault detection could have/would have prevented the burn down is the PV studies done by UL and UNM. For those that must live with article 690, note UL subject 1699B.

And we are all aware of the fundamental differences between an AC arc and a DC arc! DC AFCIs for PV use are a very specialized design, since they may have to interrupt a current-carrying 1000V DC circuit.