Graphene batteries

[Joe.B]

I have my doubts that such a thing would be viable. It takes two large reservoirs of fluid to make a flow battery work and the individual cell voltage is very low.

It's a neat idea but I don't think the energy densities are good enough. Range would not be competitive.

Certainly not with what I've seen of current tech. There would need to be some advancements for sure. As someone else alluded to here I think, with current tech it might be more like pulling into a station and they just swap out batteries. Whatever the tech is they're going to have to get to a place where you can pull into a gas station and go from empty to full in a few minutes and be able to go another 200-300 miles before the next stop. Utilize existing infrastructure (gas stations) and cater to peoples need/habits.

 

[jaggedben]

Certainly not with what I've seen of current tech. There would need to be some advancements for sure. As someone else alluded to here I think, with current tech it might be more like pulling into a station and they just swap out batteries. Whatever the tech is they're going to have to get to a place where you can pull into a gas station and go from empty to full in a few minutes and be able to go another 200-300 miles before the next stop. Utilize existing infrastructure (gas stations) and cater to peoples need/habits.

DC fast charging is pretty much there already. But maybe the aluminum graphene battery will do it even better.

I find the argument that people won't like owning an EV because they'll miss going to a gas-station-like business to be one of the weirder ideas about EVs. Most people will charge at home, or at work, or where they shop. They mostly won't be waiting for their car to charge because they'll be doing something else for the duration.

 

[electrofelon]

DC fast charging is pretty much there already. But maybe the aluminum graphene battery will do it even better.

. Most people will charge at home, or at work, or where they shop. They mostly won't be waiting for their car to charge because they'll be doing something else for the duration.

I think that's a great point, that many don't think of because they are so used to pulling over and getting gas when the tank is (near) empty. Think about this: if you had an ICE vehicle and a gas pump/tank at your house, how often would you go to a gas station?

 

[gadfly56]

I think that's a great point, that many don't think of because they are so used to pulling over and getting gas when the tank is (near) empty. Think about this: if you had an ICE vehicle and a gas pump/tank at your house, how often would you go to a gas station?

Considering the infrastructure cost commitment; why ever would I have that? If I have a commercial fleet, or I own a farm that's one thing, but not practical otherwise, unlike a charging station. I'm not sure this is a very good thought experiment.

 

[electrofelon]

Considering the infrastructure cost commitment; why ever would I have that? If I have a commercial fleet, or I own a farm that's one thing, but not practical otherwise, unlike a charging station. I'm not sure this is a very good thought experiment.

There is a lot of different stuff being thrown around. What I meant to reply to is the issue of range anxiety and perceived lack of practicality of an EV. What I was trying to point out with the thought experiment was that if one had a gas pump to fuel their ICE at home, like an EV would typically be fueled, I suspect the ICE owner would find themselves rarely needing to fuel while out and about and that one tank or charge at home is all most people need 95% of the time.

 

[jaggedben]

Considering the infrastructure cost commitment; why ever would I have that? ... I'm not sure this is a very good thought experiment.

It was a hypothetical to compare to real world EV ownership. (Did you really miss the point here?)

To complete the thought experiment, just suppose for no good reason that the gasoline company could run a very small pipe to your house that could pump one gallon per hour into your vehicle in your garage. Would you not use it overnight? And if you did, how often do you think you would take that vehicle to a gas station?

 

[AppleValleyMike]

Sounds like if they can get production costs down, they might be able to get EV’s to be almost practical.

Imagine an EV with a 2500 mile range before re-charging and a charge time under an hour!!! everyone would want one then!!!

 

[winnie]

For a time people were looking at installing home compressor units which would refill CNG powered vehicles overnight.

These were cars powered by natural gas. At a fueling station one could refill very quickly (similar to going to a liquid fuel station) but at home one could only refill slowly because of the capacity of the natural gas network and compressor limits.

There might be some relevant user experiences in the group of people who tried that.

Jon

 

[jaggedben]

Or, since EVs aren't an experiment like that with a tiny user base, you could just do polls of the millions of EV owners.

This one came up with only 12% of charge time in the US occuring at en-route gas-station-stop-like charging visits. https://www.bcg.com/publications/20...pect-from-charging-stations-for-electric-cars

I suspect that percentage will grow, but you get the point.

 

[gadfly56]

It was a hypothetical to compare to real world EV ownership. (Did you really miss the point here?)

To complete the thought experiment, just suppose for no good reason that the gasoline company could run a very small pipe to your house that could pump one gallon per hour into your vehicle in your garage. Would you not use it overnight? And if you did, how often do you think you would take that vehicle to a gas station?

OK, that's a more reasonable fact pattern. And under those circumstances, yes, for most of my need it would be sufficient. The summer we travelled to Wisconsin Dells? Not so much.

 

[Frank DuVal]

A few years ago, when gas prices were low we didn't depend on anybody else.

Just saying.

-Hal

The oil market is worldwide. When an oil company here in the US has oil to sell, why would they accept a lower price than what they can get on the world market? Because it is patriotic? Then why did the CEOs send our jobs to foreign lands just to save a buck? We have one planet and it is one big market now, not segmented markets, because shipping is worldwide.

You don't remember that during the last cheap gasoline time the world market for oil was in NEGATIVE numbers per barrel? Hard to turn a profit when you pay someone to take your oil! So the market did correct.

 

[electrofelon]

The oil market is worldwide. When an oil company here in the US has oil to sell, why would they accept a lower price than what they can get on the world market? Because it is patriotic? Then why did the CEOs send our jobs to foreign lands just to save a buck? We have one planet and it is one big market now, not segmented markets, because shipping is worldwide.

You don't remember that during the last cheap gasoline time the world market for oil was in NEGATIVE numbers per barrel? Hard to turn a profit when you pay someone to take your oil! So the market did correct.

All this talk about a huge complex thing like world oil markets, Brent crude vs west Texas intermediate, crude vs refined, imports/exports, global transportation, OPEC .....it's making my head spin. Can't we just blame Obama and Biden?

 

[winnie]

All in all, perhaps we'll see your idea in a hundred years, if we can avoid civilizational collapse due to climate change, the oil is all gone, there's still a need for hydrocarbons that goes beyond hobbies, and there's still available coal, and people still think it's okay to burn it.

I agree with most of your points about 'synthesizing fuels from electrolytic H2'.

The random thought is more a hunch that things we do to create 'green' energy will result in uses that are very much not green, but rather cheap.

I suspect we will see electrolytic hydrogen replacing fossil derived hydrogen by virtue of being cheaper. This won't be because of electrolyzers connected to the grid, but rather directly connected to PV sources, to use capacity which would otherwise be 'curtailed' because of insufficient grid capacity.

IMHO it is quickly getting to the point where oversized PV systems with curtailment make more sense than matched PV systems with energy storage, because the PV itself is so cheap. This is analogous to the DC:AC ratio of a normal system, but writ large.

Well if you have excess PV capacity not being utilized, someone will look for ways to use it. It might be bitcoin (uggggh) or it might me electrolyzers. The RT efficiency won't be there, but the H2 has value.

Once you have cheap H2 in the above scenario, you are going to find schemes to use it.

Jon

 

[ggunn]

I agree with most of your points about 'synthesizing fuels from electrolytic H2'.

The random thought is more a hunch that things we do to create 'green' energy will result in uses that are very much not green, but rather cheap.

I suspect we will see electrolytic hydrogen replacing fossil derived hydrogen by virtue of being cheaper. This won't be because of electrolyzers connected to the grid, but rather directly connected to PV sources, to use capacity which would otherwise be 'curtailed' because of insufficient grid capacity.

IMHO it is quickly getting to the point where oversized PV systems with curtailment make more sense than matched PV systems with energy storage, because the PV itself is so cheap. This is analogous to the DC:AC ratio of a normal system, but writ large.

Well if you have excess PV capacity not being utilized, someone will look for ways to use it. It might be bitcoin (uggggh) or it might me electrolyzers. The RT efficiency won't be there, but the H2 has value.

Once you have cheap H2 in the above scenario, you are going to find schemes to use it.

Jon

Unless you can use that H2 to generate electrical power you have only solved half the problem.

 

[winnie]

Unless you can use that H2 to generate electrical power you have only solved half the problem.

There are plenty of chemical uses for hydrogen.

Ammonia and metals reduction are two important examples.

Jon

 

[hillbilly1]

All this talk about a huge complex thing like world oil markets, Brent crude vs west Texas intermediate, crude vs refined, imports/exports, global transportation, OPEC .....it's making my head spin. Can't we just blame Obama and Biden?

Wouldn’t do any good, all of the politicians cover for each other, and just pay lip service to make their constituents that they are doing the right thing. That has just been proven. Just follow the money.

 

[ggunn]

There are plenty of chemical uses for hydrogen.

Ammonia and metals reduction are two important examples.

Jon

That's not what I mean. Storage with PV would not only provide a place to put excess energy but also a repository to pull from when demand exceeds production. Both are useful to smooth the effects of the variable output of a large PV system on the grid it is connected to.

 

[winnie]

That's not what I mean. Storage with PV would not only provide a place to put excess energy but also a repository to pull from when demand exceeds production. Both are useful to smooth the effects of the variable output of a large PV system on the grid it is connected to.

I absolutely agree that for _electrical power production_ PV requires storage. And for short term balancing you need batteries with high round trip efficiency.

I am saying that we are going to see H2 production as a way of using PV production in excess of what the grid requires, and that we are going to see excess PV production during some periods of time. Because energy storage is much more expensive than PV production, it probably makes sense to have a PV system with excess _peak_ production to get better matching to times of maximum consumption. In other words to get better production match at 5pm you might have excess production at noon. The net result will be that there is PV capacity looking for new customers.

I get that you are saying that PV-> H2 -> electricity has a very poor round trip efficiency and thus is a bad choice for electricity storage. IMHO it is poor for short term (2-4 hour) load leveling. Even with a horrible RT efficiency it might be a good choice for seasonal energy storage. But my basic point was not looking at electricity storage via H2, but the other chemical uses of H2. You are making good points about apples; I was mostly talking about grapefruit.

-Jon

 

[ggunn]

I absolutely agree that for _electrical power production_ PV requires storage. And for short term balancing you need batteries with high round trip efficiency.

I am saying that we are going to see H2 production as a way of using PV production in excess of what the grid requires, and that we are going to see excess PV production during some periods of time. Because energy storage is much more expensive than PV production, it probably makes sense to have a PV system with excess _peak_ production to get better matching to times of maximum consumption. In other words to get better production match at 5pm you might have excess production at noon. The net result will be that there is PV capacity looking for new customers.

I get that you are saying that PV-> H2 -> electricity has a very poor round trip efficiency and thus is a bad choice for electricity storage. IMHO it is poor for short term (2-4 hour) load leveling. Even with a horrible RT efficiency it might be a good choice for seasonal energy storage. But my basic point was not looking at electricity storage via H2, but the other chemical uses of H2. You are making good points about apples; I was mostly talking about grapefruit.

-Jon

Sorry, my doctor won't let me eat grapefruit.