Green Ground Screw

[celtic]

I don't own the 2005 NEC (we are still on 2002).

Learn something new every day.

You're about to learn your second item for today

Free Access to the 2005 NEC from NFPA.

You can't download it, but you can use it while online...save the link until you guys are on 2005 (unless that will take until 2008 - )

 

[james wuebker]

250.8 states that (Sheet Metal screws are not permitted to be used) But remember the rule still doesn't prohibit drywall screws or wood screws from being used for this purpose, just "sheet-metal" screws! I don't like this at all.
Jim

 

[celtic]

250.8 states that (Sheet Metal screws are not permitted to be used) But remember the rule still doesn't prohibit drywall screws or wood screws from being used for this purpose, just "sheet-metal" screws! I don't like this at all.
Jim

Why not just change it to a "machine screw"...then people won't get confused when pondering the differences between sheet metal screws, dry wall screws, wood screws, lag bolts, etc.

 

[iwire]

Why not just change it to a "machine screw"...then people won't get confused when pondering the differences between sheet metal screws, dry wall screws, wood screws, lag bolts, etc.

I agree and it seems so obvious that I am baffled by the wording they chose.

 

[celtic]

Why not just change it to a "machine screw"...then people won't get confused when pondering the differences between sheet metal screws, dry wall screws, wood screws, lag bolts, etc.

I agree and it seems so obvious that I am baffled by the wording they chose.

I have a penchant for the obvious.

 

[ryan_618]

I agree and it seems so obvious that I am baffled by the wording they chose.

The problem is that last code cycle it wans't proposed until the comment stage. The technical comittee can't accept new business at the comment stage, so it was held over until the 2008 cycle. I just hope somebody proposed it for the 2008, otherwise they still won't be able to change it

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Ryan,

NFPA 70 ? May 2001 ROP
(Log #740)
5- 71 - (250-8 and Exception (New)): Reject
SUBMITTER: Dan Leaf, Palmdale, CA
RECOMMENDATION: Revise first sentence:
Wire type Grounding grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means.
Add:
Exception: Machine screws shall be permitted for solid No. 10 and smaller conductors, where used for no other purpose.
SUBSTANTIATION: Equipment grounding conductors may be raceways, cable armor, cable tray, cablebus framework, etc. Screws/bolts are used in many applications for bonding/grounding continuity such as receptacles, switch yokes, box covers, faceplates, cabletray and cablebus framework, etc., where there is direct metal-to-metal contact, and are indicated in
Sections 250-28(a); 250-102(a); 250-126(1); 250-148(a); 250-136(a); 370-40(d); 410-58(b)(3); 550-11(c)(4); 551-55(c),(2)(3); 551-56(b) Exception; 552-56(c)(2)(3), and inferred by 250-98. While some of these may be covered by listing, all are not. A common grounding or bonding connection in boxes is by a machine screw in a tapped hole covered by Section 370-40(d).
PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: Machine screws are used to secure conductor pressure connectors. Section 250-8 also covers connectors other than the wire type such as conduit grounding hubs.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 17
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION: AFFIRMATIVE: 17

NFPA 70 ? May 2001 ROC
(Log #1719)
5- 42 - (250-8) : Reject
SUBMITTER: Don Ganiere, Ottawa, IL
COMMENT ON PROPOSAL NO: 5-71
RECOMMENDATION: The proposal should be accepted in principle. Add new text: " Machine screws and bolts shall be permitted to secure listed pressure connectors and solid conductors ".
SUBSTANTIATION: Machine screws and bolts are used to secure pressure connectors and solid connectors. A machine screw is not a listed means and use of machine screws would be a violation. New wording should be added: "Machine screws and bolts shall be permitted to secure listed pressure connectors and solid conductors".
PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: The use of a machine screw to secure a listed pressure connector must be installed in accordance with the manufacturers. instruction. Section 110-14(a) does not permit the connection of a solid conductor with an ordinary machine screw.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 16
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 14
NEGATIVE: 2
EXPLANATION OF NEGATIVE:
DOBROWSKY: The comment should be accepted in principle and the proposed additional text revised as follows: "Machine screws identified for the purpose shall be permitted to secure 10 AWG or smaller conductors."
This concept is permitted as described in Section 110.14(A). Forming a loop in a 14 AWG through 10 AWG solid conductor and securing it with a screw in compliance with Section 110.14(A) should be acceptable in Section 250.8.
HAMMEL: The comment should be accepted in principle and the proposed additional text revised as follows: "Machine screws identified for the purpose shall be permitted to secure 10AWG or smaller conductors."
This concept is permitted as described in Section 110.14(A). Forming a loop in a 14AWG through 10AWG solid conductor and securing it with a screw in compliance with Section 110.14(A) should be acceptable in Section 250.8.

Don

 

[ryan_618]

I guess we will wait and see then, waon't we?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Ryan,
Did you look at this part of the panel statement when they rejected my commnet?

... Section 110-14(a) does not permit the connection of a solid conductor with an ordinary machine screw.

Don

 

[iwire]

Ryan,
Did you look at this part of the panel statement when they rejected my commnet?

... Section 110-14(a) does not permit the connection of a solid conductor with an ordinary machine screw.

Don

Than it does not allow grounding screws either as they are not listed.

Looks like we have to install a crimp terminal on the conductor.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Bob,

Than it does not allow grounding screws either as they are not listed.
Looks like we have to install a crimp terminal on the conductor.

Or use the listed push-on clip that often doesn't stay in place.
Don

 

[iwire]

Bob,

Or use the listed push-on clip that often doesn't stay in place.
Don

Great :roll:

The first guy I worked for in the trade used those, I have not touched them since.

Even as apprentice they struck me as a bad joke for a permanent electrical connection.

I am going to start cad welding my 12 AWGs to the box. :wink:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I am going to start cad welding my 12 AWGs to the box.

can I watch? :twisted:

 

[LarryFine]

I am going to start cad welding my 12 AWGs to the box.

can I watch? :twisted:

Can I be a benificiary?

 

[celtic]

I am going to start cad welding my 12 AWGs to the box. :wink:

You'll never hit 10k with that plan :!:

 

[iwire]

I am going to start cad welding my 12 AWGs to the box. :wink:

You'll never hit 10k with that plan :!:

Now that sounds like a challenge. :lol:

 

[mthead]

I thought the rejection of ordinary "machine d screw " was followed up by the answer to the question which started this thread when it stated that only the screws identified for the purpose [i.e. the dreaded,threaded green grounding screws]could be used.
That old "listed for the purpose"thing again...

 

[George Stolz]

Now, if you're going to delve into the archives, you can at least be kind enough to state clearly what you're talking about. 8)

If you're saying what I think youre saying, could you provide a link to a listed green ground screw?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That old "listed for the purpose"thing again...

There is no standard that a grounding screw can be listed to.
Don

 

[LarryFine]

Who did T.A.edison contact to certify that his new \"electric system\" was safe to operate?

The New York Board of Fire Underwriters

http://electrical-contractor.net/NFPA/Edison_letter_1881.htm