Grounding Electrode Conductor run on face of joists

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jxofaltrds said:
Most Building Officials (AHJ) would disagree with you. You can't nail to the edge of a stud in a garage or the bottom of a truss or floor joist in a garage.



The #6 and #4. Dennis I agree but the code prohibits it.

Yes I can staple (secure) a 4/0 to the bottom of a joist but not a 12-2. Which causes a bigger 'boom'. Code??????

NO wire or conductor can be stapled to the bottom of a joist paralleled to it. It is a nailing surface.

Why can we go through a cold air return (NM) and not parallel to it? Code.
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Smaller cables where prone to be damaged more readily when stabled to the bottom of joist (at angles) because the fasting method tended to cut into the cable (stables) and cause a fault in the branch circuit.
Larger cables generally where fastened with different methods and less prone to damage that lead to faults.
The is little chance that a fasting method even if metal stables is used that will damage a grounding electrode conductor even if the conductor is pulled against the stable or fastener.
If you consider that small cables when pulled on where more prone to damage when pulled on or something laid on top of the cable you can see why additional protection was required for the smaller cables

not to be picky but the area was unfinished basements not garages or did I miss something
 
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jxofaltrds said:
Very simple question.

Is the 'face' or 'edge' of a stud (2 X 4) a nailing surface in an unfinished basement?
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Mike
I guess I miss understood your question. I assumed you where asking if it was a nailing surface in relationship to physical protection of the grounding electrode system.
If you are asking if the bottom of a joist is allowed to be used to nail systems and materials to then of course the answer is yes.
But that includes electrical systems and also grounding electrode conductors. There is no question that a grounding electrode conductor can be run under the bottom of a joist. The question is does it need additional protection, such as running boards or conduit when not subject to conditions of physical damage.
The answer to the OP question is yes you can run a grounding electrode conductor at an angle to the joist fastened to the bottom of the joist in an unfinished basement
 
david said:
Mike
I guess I miss understood your question. I assumed you where asking if it was a nailing surface in relationship to physical protection of the grounding electrode system.
If you are asking if the bottom of a joist is allowed to be used to nail systems and materials to then of course the answer is yes.
But that includes electrical systems and also grounding electrode conductors. There is no question that a grounding electrode conductor can be run under the bottom of a joist. The question is does it need additional protection, such as running boards or conduit when not subject to conditions of physical damage.
The answer to the OP question is yes you can run a grounding electrode conductor at an angle to the joist fastened to the bottom of the joist in an unfinished basement
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His question was:

"Does the 2011 NEC allow a #6 AWG grounding electrode conductor to be run stapled to the face of the basement unfinished ceiling joists?"

The answer is NO.

Now as to 'crossing' joists.

(B) Securing and Protection Against Physical Damage.
Where exposed, a grounding electrode conductor or its enclosure
shall be securely fastened to the surface on which it
is carried.

Please tell me how you secure it to air?
 
Why are all of you considering the GEC a cable? It is a wire and not a cable so all of the code references that have been supplied refer to cables.
they don't apply to the GEC when not in a raceway.
 
jxofaltrds said:
His question was:

"Does the 2011 NEC allow a #6 AWG grounding electrode conductor to be run stapled to the face of the basement unfinished ceiling joists?"

The answer is NO.

Now as to 'crossing' joists.

(B) Securing and Protection Against Physical Damage.
Where exposed, a grounding electrode conductor or its enclosure
shall be securely fastened to the surface on which it
is carried.

Please tell me how you secure it to air?
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So stapling every 16" isn't enough? Now it has to be secured for its entire length?
 
Nom Deplume said:
Why are all of you considering the GEC a cable? It is a wire and not a cable so all of the code references that have been supplied refer to cables.
they don't apply to the GEC when not in a raceway.
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Who said it was a cable?

Nom Deplume said:
So stapling every 16" isn't enough? Now it has to be secured for its entire length?
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I need a beer!
 
jxofaltrds said:
His question was:

"Does the 2011 NEC allow a #6 AWG grounding electrode conductor to be run stapled to the face of the basement unfinished ceiling joists?"

The answer is NO.

Now as to 'crossing' joists.

(B) Securing and Protection Against Physical Damage.
Where exposed, a grounding electrode conductor or its enclosure
shall be securely fastened to the surface on which it
is carried.

Please tell me how you secure it to air?
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mike
the section is not just dealing with interior of the building.
the first part says it must be securely fastened to the surface that it is carried.
the second part deals specifically with framing members that includes all framing members. it gives to two choices through the framing member or on the framing member This statement is given without any other stipulation as you found in other section of the code when addressing exposed cables.
the third section make a qualifying statement that the surrounding conditions must be considered and a determination must be made if the conditions exist that would merit further protection if physical damage would be necessary.
Notice though number 8 awg is the size GEC for a 100 amp service is not in the list so a # 8 awg would need further protection no mater what.
when the conductor is run to the outside of the structure it is more prone to physical damage and the code is saying it must follow the surface of the building structure to prevent physical damage. further evaluation of the effects of lawn mowers, bikes and side walks must be made to determine if further protection would be necessary.
The is no statement anywhere in this section that prohibits the conductor from being fastened to the bottom of the joist.
 
david said:
mike
the section is not just dealing with interior of the building.
the first part says it must be securely fastened to the surface that it is carried.
the second part deals specifically with framing members that includes all framing members. it gives to two choices through the framing member or on the framing member This statement is given without any other stipulation as you found in other section of the code when addressing exposed cables.
the third section make a qualifying statement that the surrounding conditions must be considered and a determination must be made if the conditions exist that would merit further protection if physical damage would be necessary. ......

The is no statement anywhere in this section that prohibits the conductor from being fastened to the bottom of the joist.
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:thumbsup::thumbsup: No need to take you to the New Mexico Badlands.
 
david said:
mike
the section is not just dealing with interior of the building.
the first part says it must be securely fastened to the surface that it is carried.
the second part deals specifically with framing members that includes all framing members. it gives to two choices through the framing member or on the framing member This statement is given without any other stipulation as you found in other section of the code when addressing exposed cables.
the third section make a qualifying statement that the surrounding conditions must be considered and a determination must be made if the conditions exist that would merit further protection if physical damage would be necessary.
Notice though number 8 awg is the size GEC for a 100 amp service is not in the list so a # 8 awg would need further protection no mater what.
when the conductor is run to the outside of the structure it is more prone to physical damage and the code is saying it must follow the surface of the building structure to prevent physical damage. further evaluation of the effects of lawn mowers, bikes and side walks must be made to determine if further protection would be necessary.
The is no statement anywhere in this section that prohibits the conductor from being fastened to the bottom of the joist.
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Read the red. It does not say under!

We are not discussing outside conditions here.
 
there are thousands to the point that you would be hard pressed to find a building that has a unfinished basement in it that the grounding electrode conductor is not fastened to the bottom the joist in these buildings. This section has been so clearly understood that you do not find 8awg conductors for 100 amp services to the point that 6awg solid was cheaper to buy than 8awg because of supply and demand. And ever since this section was in the code book it was understood that 6awg could be installed fastened to the bottom of the joist. So we have well over 10,000 buildings approved by every inspection agency in the past who where all wrong.

The wording just is not their to prohibit this code compliant practice.
 
Mike I will have to agree to disagree with you on this and I believe you missed my point earlier. How is #4 run on the bottom protected from physical damage if it does not follow the joist but #6 is not when it does follow the joist. If a basement is going to get sheetrock then the entire ceiling is usually dropped since there is plumbing etc. IMO, if the wire runs parallel to the joist it is follow the building structure -- no different than a running board.

If I nail a board to the bottom of the joist then it is okay but not without an extra board-- that makes no sense at all.
 
david said:
This section has been so clearly understood that you do not find 8awg conductors for 100 amp services to the point that 6awg solid was cheaper to buy than 8awg because of supply and demand. And ever since this section was in the code book it was understood that 6awg could be installed fastened to the bottom of the joist. So we have well over 10,000 buildings approved by every inspection agency in the past who where all wrong.

The wording just is not their to prohibit this code compliant practice.
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We always used #6 Copper on 100 amp services so we could simply staple it to the structure without the need for cable armor or some other protection.

Same thing applied to a ground rod, where we us also use #6 even when a #8 was all that was required.
 
jxofaltrds said:
Air is not part of the building surface. That is why running boards are used like in 334.

NM
334.15 Exposed Work. In exposed work, except as provided
in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in
334.15(A) through (C).
(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface
of the building finish or of running boards.
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what do you do with the air when you choose the method of passing through (bored holes) the framing members.

running boards where not used to replace the air in the section you posted, they where used to provide physical protection of the cable.
it was and still is excepted that batter boards on both sides of the cable meets or exceeds this requirement for physical protection and the cable is left stapled to the bottom of and angles to the framing member (joist).

Mike keep in mind this statement of closely following the building surfaces gives the advantage of not having to require additional protection for these conductors when installed tightly against the building siding out side. The building itself is going to protect the conductor from physical damage.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Mike I will have to agree to disagree with you on this and I believe you missed my point earlier. How is #4 run on the bottom protected from physical damage if it does not follow the joist but #6 is not when it does follow the joist. If a basement is going to get sheetrock then the entire ceiling is usually dropped since there is plumbing etc. IMO, if the wire runs parallel to the joist it is follow the building structure -- no different than a running board.

If I nail a board to the bottom of the joist then it is okay but not without an extra board-- that makes no sense at all.
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I agree no sense 4 or 6. I and others have approve a #6 when it is ran between (beside) the cold and hot water lines, understand. Looked protected to me. We do use some common sense but we are arguing what the code says. It's a pain but staple it to the bandboard and you are ok.

#6 along the bottom or crossing the bottom is not allowed. Why? I do not know they made that a rule.

david said:
what do you do with the air when you choose the method of passing through (bored holes) the framing members.

running boards where not used to replace the air in the section you posted, they where used to provide physical protection of the cable.
it was and still is excepted that batter boards on both sides of the cable meets or exceeds this requirement for physical protection and the cable is left stapled to the bottom of and angles to the framing member (joist).

Mike keep in mind this statement of closely following the building surfaces gives the advantage of not having to require additional protection for these conductors when installed tightly against the building siding out side. The building itself is going to protect the conductor from physical damage.
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If I understand you a 1 X beside the GEC would serve as protection.

These 'opinions' come from meetings with other EIs and in CE classes and state IAEI meetings. Consistency is what we try to have.

No one could attach any wire to the edge of a stud so that logic is used for the bottom of a joist.

As to the crawl if a #6 was on the bottom near the sides I think that it is ok. If it is on the bottom in the field of the floor/ceiling then no.

Does all of this sound like a judgment call? Yes it does.
 
jxofaltrds said:
I agree no sense 4 or 6. I and others have approve a #6 when it is ran between (beside) the cold and hot water lines, understand. Looked protected to me. We do use some common sense but we are arguing what the code says. It's a pain but staple it to the bandboard and you are ok.

#6 along the bottom or crossing the bottom is not allowed. Why? I do not know they made that a rule.



If I understand you a 1 X beside the GEC would serve as protection.

These 'opinions' come from meetings with other EIs and in CE classes and state IAEI meetings. Consistency is what we try to have.

No one could attach any wire to the edge of a stud so that logic is used for the bottom of a joist.

As to the crawl if a #6 was on the bottom near the sides I think that it is ok. If it is on the bottom in the field of the floor/ceiling then no.

Does all of this sound like a judgment call? Yes it does.
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[QUOTE#6 along the bottom or crossing the bottom is not allowed. Why? I do not know they made that a rule. [/QUOTE]

how does through or on define what part of the framing member you are attaching to?

where does it state it is not allowed. Your going back to the statement closely following the building structure. Ok you inspect a basement the GEC is stapled to the bottom of the joist the joist spacing is 16 center 14 1/2 in air gap between every fasting point. . The GEC is stabled to every joist. You tell them to pull the staples add a running board they do they staple the GEC to the running board every what let say 4 1/2 ft. their is now an air spacing of every 4 1/2 feet but in your mind they are now closely following the building surface.

if you look at what the running board provided, it provided physical protection. It did not provide more building surface.

I contend that the thrust of the rule is providing physical protection when more is judged to be needed.
 
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jxofaltrds said:
#6 along the bottom or crossing the bottom is not allowed. Why? I do not know they made that a rule.
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Why wouldn't a #6 stapled parallel to the bottom of a joist be "along the surface of the building construction"? The code rule doesn't support that argument.
 
infinity said:
Why wouldn't a #6 stapled parallel to the bottom of a joist be "along the surface of the building construction"? The code rule doesn't support that argument.
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What does 334 mean by this?

(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface
of the building finish or of running boards.

Can I staple NM to the bottom of a joist along it's length.

Edit:

I am re-thinking if a #4 is allowed under a joist.
 
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