bradleyelectric, yowza, a customer thought they could dictate the price of a job? I'd like to see them try that in most restaurants. I've had a customer ask, "Don't you think that's a little high for xxx?" Once I explained all the "little things" that go into running a business (even a small one like mine) my price seemed a little more reasonable. 90% of my business is residential and 100% of it is through word of mouth. I don't often get people trying to low ball me because of that. I wish sometimes that people would go to Lowez or HD and see how much they charge to change a ceiling fixture ($110.00 + tax at Lowez). Then I have to try to compete with unlicensed "Craigs list-ers."
Handyman doing electrical work.
- Thread starter chris1971
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That $110 is the bate, once they get to your house, that price changes fast, it usually comes out costing more like $220 OR more after they explain all the not includes.
Try not to look at someone elses price to compare with, their price is not always what actually get, and your costs will always be different from anyone else.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
I found this article very interesting but I would question the credentials of the person writing the article. It sounds like one homeowner wishing to give other homeowners some sage advice with little knowledge to back it up.
The only problem is that people reading this will see it and think it has some credibility. A person can write an article stating pretty much any opinion with no consequences.
The idea of checking references is very good but that's about all they thought important. They didn't even hint to check for a business license, insurance or warranty or anything to protect the homeowner from being sued if anything were to happen to a worker in their home.
There are professional handyman services out there but they don't even get into electrical, plumbing or roofing. They have insurance but know that if they were to start sending employees up on the roof this would drive the cost of workmans comp. through the roof. A professional service will know what thier insurance covers and stay away from other work.
A handyman is one thing but it should be seperated from someone running an unlicensed general contracting business. A handyman may be usefull for minor repairs but they can't even get a permit for a bath or kitchen remodel ( in most areas). A business license to cover a handyman business normally only allows painting and patching and minor carpenty ( nothing structural).
I do wish the people that write these articles would look at their state laws so they would have some idea what they are talking about. I have no idea what a handyman is allowed to do in each area because every jurisdiction will be different. In some areas you can build a deck without a permit and in others a permit is required for all building, even a storage building. They never mention the first word about local laws.
I did enjoy the article and think this is where most homeowners get their information, from others that don't know what they are talking about.
Satcom I'm not understanding your views on this.
In the one paragraph you say you don't think it's wise to report unlicensed illegal contractors but then in the other paragraph you say it's a long time coming.
Are you against reporting unlicensed illegal contractors?
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Not sure what the rules and regs are in MN for handymen doing electrical work. Here in NJ if you're caught advertising for or actually doing electrical work without a license it's a 4th degree felony and a $1k fine - first offense.
When the economy is up and running at full speed and there's plenty of work around for everyone, the general tendency is to look the other way. But when it's in the tank like it is now you bet I'd turn him in. And I wouldn't care how many friends and/or customers I tick off in the process. At the very least I would write a letter to the AHJ of municipality (certified mail - return receipt) advising that boot-legged work is going on and that you were the last EC to pull a permit for the job. If the job was closed out ask him to insert this letter inside the jacket for future reference. That way, when the house burns down a year from now and the lawyers look to sue everyone they can, your letter will be on file with a (very important) date stamp (certified mail - return receipt).
Just my 2 cents worth.
When the economy is up and running at full speed and there's plenty of work around for everyone, the general tendency is to look the other way. But when it's in the tank like it is now you bet I'd turn him in. And I wouldn't care how many friends and/or customers I tick off in the process. At the very least I would write a letter to the AHJ of municipality (certified mail - return receipt) advising that boot-legged work is going on and that you were the last EC to pull a permit for the job. If the job was closed out ask him to insert this letter inside the jacket for future reference. That way, when the house burns down a year from now and the lawyers look to sue everyone they can, your letter will be on file with a (very important) date stamp (certified mail - return receipt).
Just my 2 cents worth.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Rick, you're way off base here. We all (EC's) agreed (up front) to play by a set of rules set down by the States we practice in. In doing so our prices go up because our costs go up (truck, insurance, license and business permit fees, CEU requirements, knowledge of the industry, knowing what materials to use, etc.). A trunk slammer goes to Big Orange, buys 49 cent receptacles and a roll of 14/2 RX and does the job without having any additional overhead. Now who's the one that lacks professionalism ?
No problem. Pack your stuff up and dis-associate yourself with us (EC's).
If it's not the cost then get prices from other EC's for the work. By far, the major reason you hire a hack is an attempt to get the job done cheaper.
No not against following the laws
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No not against following the laws, but I also would not use the law to force a homeowner to comply, if they pick a handyman to do the work, I would just advise them of the laws, and if I worked on the home say doing a service upgrade, and the handyman touched any of my work, I would send the AHJ a certified letter, noting It was not my work, but getting in the middle of a homeowner hiring a handyman is not a wise move, in my opinion, the handyman would have to do something illegal for me to address it to the AHJ, the homowner has can make choices, and once I inform them of the laws, they know if they pick the handy guy they may have problems down the road, no supprises.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
You know if we were all doctors having this same conversation about unqualified unlicensed medical practitioners running amok among them the answers given would be no brainers. Burn em where and when you can.....
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I disagree. If I were passing by a house and saw a hack doing electrical work then it's none of my business. If I were recently the last EC to pull a permit on this job then I'm out there protecting my license.
It's not retaliation. I don't care who does the work as long as it's another licensed EC operating with a busness permit in my State. Then my feelings might be hurt but I walk away from that.
The laws in his state may not require a licensed contractor, to report illegal activity.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Understood. If they don't then I guess there's not much he can do but why bring up the case in the first place ? By the same token if they did then my opinion stands.
I misread the original post. :roll: I didn't understand that the handy man was working on the same job as he was. I thought the HO simply chose the Handyman.
I would:
A) Tell the HO that I wouldn't be doing any work.
B) Point out to the inspector exactly what work was mine and note it on my invoice.
I would lean toward A but if I had already started some work I'd have to go B and I wouldn't hesitate to inspect the handyman's work myself and give the inspector a heads up.
PS. Handymen here used to be able to do up to $1000 of work. Now they can do up to $1000 in work if it does not require a permit, which most electrical does.
I would:
A) Tell the HO that I wouldn't be doing any work.
B) Point out to the inspector exactly what work was mine and note it on my invoice.
I would lean toward A but if I had already started some work I'd have to go B and I wouldn't hesitate to inspect the handyman's work myself and give the inspector a heads up.
PS. Handymen here used to be able to do up to $1000 of work. Now they can do up to $1000 in work if it does not require a permit, which most electrical does.
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SPARKS40
Member
- Location
- Northern Il
The majority of you guys just KILL me.....nothin' personal.....it's just that it sounds as if you are crying about the "handyman" taking your bread & butter. "This guy's a hack", "this guy's unlicensed"....etc. Instead of worrying about reporting the guy, why can't we focus on what we might do to SELL ourselves to customers??? There is a reason the "handymen" are taking work from you, and i think it is a direct result of not being competitive enough on pricing, and also trying to inflate prices by trying to sell the customer things they may not actually need. Not accusing anyone in here, but i have also heard of ridiculous markups on materials....anyone ever see a $5 stick of 1/2" EMT???? Just sayin'........
readydave8
re member
- Location
- Clarkesville, Georgia
- Occupation
- electrician
If I save the homeowner a trip to Lowe's and my time waiting for him to get back that stick may be a bargain at $5. I come in a 1-ton box van truck with $3500 inventory, $2000 tools, plus what I bring for his job. Some calls I might only sell $2.50 material, of course I'll double it if I can.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
The general contractors I work with all mark up my entire quotes 25%. Nobody complains to them about that. My jeans cost me upwards of $30 bucks a pop. The fabric costs maybe $2 in China, labor about the same, same for shipping. So a total of $6 bucks gets turned into $30 and nobody complains about that either.... By the way, local hardware store for a 10' length 1/2" emt is over six dollars, (granted its not a supply house). Never saw any complaining going on at the register about that. All those markups result in a healthy enterprise. The U.S. Customs searches for and seizes any counterfeit jeans they find coming into the country. I think unlicensed handyhacks are just like counterfeit electrical contractors. I say it again- burn em everytime you can.....
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jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
Handymen have their place in society. It's building shelves and mailboxes, patching holes in the wall, replacing a step on a stairwell.
I'll even go so far as to say that a handyman can better secure a loose receptacle to the wall and replace the wall plate that has become cracked over time.
SPARKS40: From your posts I gather that I should try to do things illegally in order to compete with handymen. I won't do that. It's a gamble any way you look at it. Maybe I do things illegally and give a better price than a hack. And maybe I get away with it for a long time.
Until one day, I get arrested and now I have to pay a lawyer to stick up for me. Then where does all that "profit" go?
I'll even go so far as to say that a handyman can better secure a loose receptacle to the wall and replace the wall plate that has become cracked over time.
SPARKS40: From your posts I gather that I should try to do things illegally in order to compete with handymen. I won't do that. It's a gamble any way you look at it. Maybe I do things illegally and give a better price than a hack. And maybe I get away with it for a long time.
Until one day, I get arrested and now I have to pay a lawyer to stick up for me. Then where does all that "profit" go?
I don't know who your looking at but in this area the handyman are marking up 100% or more on things like emt, and the fire alarm guys mark emt up to 1000% and the big crooked electricians rip off the consumer at a 50% or less mark up.
The contractor buys from a supply house that market it up 100 to 200% or even much more on small items, then the contractor has to mark it up to cover material handle cost, and other overhead items, so your way off on your view of what is wrong,
Most of the handyman don;t have the same operating costs as an insured and licensed and regulated contractor, so they can, low bid jobs, but they can't provide the security of being insured, and qualified workers.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
There is a reason handymen are cheaper. They don't worry about following any of the rules and this does cut cost.
We can use a simple bathroom remodel as an example ( this is what the OP mentioned ). First there is the cost of the permit. Not much but an added cost. Many of the older homes didn't have a bath circuit, some don't even have a receptacle just a light.
Here is where the fun starts, the homeowner doesn't care what's done so long as it's cheap, he's going to sell the house anyway. The electrician will have to run a bath circuit and the handyman will connect to the bedroom circuit ( no inspection ). If an exhaust fan is required the handyman will leave the decision up to the homeowner and the electrician will install to pass inspection ( selling something he doesn't need or doesn't think he needs). Hot tub going in but the handyman connects to existing circuit and the homeowner doesn't care because he is going to sell the house anyway.
A handyman will work to the homeowner's instructions and an electrician must follow the NEC to pass inspections so they are really bidding to different jobs.
If we are forced to work to the same standards I think I can beat a handyman on price. They normally would fail an inspection two or three time by trying to cut corners and I'll pass the first time by knowing what really needs to be done. Unless you are willing to turn this handyman in how can you force him to work to the same standards. We really can't lower our standards and be code compliant the only thing we can do is force the handyman to come up to the minimum standards set forth by the NEC.
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