Handyman-type job calls

[kwired]

I used to hear all sorts of similar complaints from clients which is why I switched from time and materials rates to flat rates. Since I now give the client a fixed price before I start, they are not surprised when I present the bill. The price sensitive people don't hire me which is fine. There are plenty of people that can pay that do. This makes my job much less stressful.

Most my work, especially service calls, are T&M. Some the residential new construction and remodels maybe start with an estimate but seldom are any fixed price from the start. In those cases I always estimate high as it is easier to talk them down in price than up. Seldom have I gone over the estimate if the scope of work remained same as estimate was based on. Don't think I have ever gone over estimate enough to turn the entire project into a net loss, again presuming scope of project never changed from what the estimate was based on.

Many times you figure worst case of how you are going to get lines run to some location, then when project finally is happening they end up demolishing more than you anticipated and what you prepared for the worst on ends up being pretty easy.

I usually don't itemize how many hours I billed them, just a lump sum labor amount. This goes for invoices or estimates/bids.

I have had less complaints (nearly no complaints) on labor cost since doing that, and have been doing it that way for several years now.

Funny how some will accept with no comment "Labor $500".
But will squawk about how much you charged for the same job if you itemized it as "Labor - 5 hours @ $100 = $500."

 

[Coppersmith]

Though the residential markets can be cutthroat in some situations some customers, especially in the commercial and industrial markets, see good workmanship, fast response when service is needed or getting it fixed the first time as something worth paying a little more for than trying to find the lowest price for those services and not knowing what kind of service you may get.

Most of my work is residential but I stay away from the cutthroat jobs such as new construction. Probably the closest I come to working cutthroat jobs are jobs for house flippers. They want a bid, but it's usually an easy bid to do, and they usually only call one contractor at a time so I'm not competing as hard.

Work directly for homeowners is the best because there is no GC who is attempting to negotiate your rates. There is plenty of this work. I also have working relationships with a bunch of small remodeling contractors, plumbers, solar contractors, generator contractors, and mechanical contractors who all need electrical work done as part of their trades. They know my work quality and trust me. I don't have to bid these jobs unless they are very big.

I do commercial and light industrial work as well, but it's more of a pain to get because I'm usually competing with other contractors on price. However, If I win one, the work is usually much easier than residential as they don't mind when you accidentally smash your ladder into a wall and there is no drywall to cut and repair.

 

[Coppersmith]

When you give an estimate and you rarely go over the estimate you are doing approximately the same thing as giving a flat rate price. The client is comfortable because they know what to expect. I sometimes have to give a flat price with the caveat that it will be more if (some condition) occurs.

Funny how some will accept with no comment "Labor $500".
But will squawk about how much you charged for the same job if you itemized it as "Labor - 5 hours @ $100 = $500."

This is the essence of why flat pricing works so well. As soon as you say XX hours to do the job, people calculate the $$/HR in their head and are always offended. If you never say how many hours, even if the $$/HR comes out the same or more, they never complain.

 

[ramsy]

For small & large tasks, both handy hacks and licenses must be watched when doing typical electrical services. Beyond organized labor shops, paying skilled wages with payroll deductions in not enforceable, and may not be sustainable, except for some specialty shops with a market niche.

I see both illegal hacks and licenses doing unskilled electrical for cash, evading taxes, without building Permits, City licenses, or Workman's Comp. for their helpers. The difference is licenses tend to prefer paper work, once they find help with a highly motivated work ethic. Shops that run on revolving apprentice pay, with YouTube instruction, may have little need for the licensed RMO to get out of the truck.

 

[kwired]

For small & large tasks, both handy hacks and licenses must be watched when doing typical electrical services. Beyond organized labor shops, paying skilled wages with payroll deductions in not enforceable, and may not be sustainable, except for some specialty shops with a market niche.

I see both illegal hacks and licenses doing unskilled electrical for cash, evading taxes, without building Permits, City licenses, or Workman's Comp. for their helpers. The difference is licenses tend to prefer paper work, once they find help with a highly motivated work ethic. Shops that run on revolving apprentice pay, with YouTube instruction, may have little need for the licensed RMO to get out of the truck.

Still comes down to needing money to cover overhead. The guy that hires licensed people, properly handles payroll, workers compensation, etc. has higher overhead and needs to charge enough to cover it all. The guy that works under the table don't have those added costs, can afford to charge less (until he is caught anyway). Same low price guy will be attractive to cheapskate clients, but then they will figure out he cut as many corners as possible in the installation to help keep the price low and be frustrated when they can't get him to come out to solve problems they think he should be covering with warranty, sometimes even trouble getting him to fix things even if they are willing to pay some or all of the cost to fix.

That said not all lower price guys are bad, some simply have lower overhead, but those likely have less ability to handle certain tasks that require special equipment or larger workforce as well.

 

[ramsy]

For the minor repair or emergency services in my area, the pandemic has not changed the popularity of searching for services thru internet consumer-reviews. At best these review sites can articulate customer satisfaction, or feelings of confidence in a contractors work.

However, since miss-representation of qualifications is common to all types of contractors in my area, customers don't realize how closely they should watch the uninsured helpers, which are exploited by all types of contractors.

Customers don't notice when outlet junctions get covered up by new cabinets, or the back splash of beautiful granite countertops. If any licensed & bonded tile or cabinet contractors still exist, when they do the electrical, customers write steller reviews without recognizing they have no GFCI protection in the kitchen, much less AFCI protenction at the fuse box for all the new plugs missing tamper resistance.

Perhaps the worst part, on those rare occations when remodels are inspected, is the combination inspectors in my area who pass this remodel electrical, completely oblivious to the apparant fire hazards.

Consumer reviews are not noticing if the help gets nervous when watched, can't articulate code requirements for their task, or need the phone to answer questions, much less recognize their project is being used as a training camp for helpers in training, bouncing around with their thumbs up their butt.

 

[sparkcontrol]

I have a job I'm bidding right now where I'm changing lighting fixtures in a drop ceiling. The client asked if I could change all the drop ceiling tiles in the whole building. Initially I said yes. It's not work I normally do, but I know how to do it. Then while we were walking the job looking at lighting changes, the client decided the grid needed to be changed in some places to make the lighting line up nicely. I told her that grid work was outside my expertise and she was better off calling a ceiling grid guy. And if she was going to call a ceiling grid guy, she might as well have him change the tiles since he will most likely be cheaper than me. I hate the idea of somebody paying more than they need to. Probably makes me a bad businessman.

Your not a bad bussiness man...you are just honest....let the ceiling guy do the tiles also...

 

[sparkcontrol]

I get these callers everyday ....I never refuse them, its our work. Even if it is to replace one Switch or gfi or swap out a ceiling fixture...

 

[romex jockey]

Do any of you ever get calls from homeowners to do small tasks that any handyman would be able to do? Stuff like changing a few outlets/switches or light fixtures? Do you go and do the jobs, or do you tell them you're not interested? I've been getting a lot of calls like that lately.

well....1/2 my calls are from HO's after the handyman was there.....

one in their honor!>

I know a place called Home Depot
They teach a class and you're good to go
They've wire and plumb and tile people
That do that crazy hack jive too

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive


Papa Bob Vila gonna reno my home
Said all that hack jive have got the go
Code geeks don't dare put them down
They're doin' the hack jive all over town

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

Mama, Mama look at Tim Allen
He's doin' that hack jive comedian
Grandpa tuned in to catch a line
Gonna do that hack jive one more time

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive


Well, osha and the lawyers and an nec chief
They all dig that crazy beat
Big Box store gave 'em all a treat
When they taught that hack jive with their feet

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

HD & Lowes got married last fall
They had a little merger, and a-that ain't all
They knew how to use the media, you see
Doin' that hack jive on TV

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

~RJ~
w/apologies to Jonny Otis

 

[Fred B]

I have a job I'm bidding right now where I'm changing lighting fixtures in a drop ceiling. The client asked if I could change all the drop ceiling tiles in the whole building. Initially I said yes. It's not work I normally do, but I know how to do it. Then while we were walking the job looking at lighting changes, the client decided the grid needed to be changed in some places to make the lighting line up nicely. I told her that grid work was outside my expertise and she was better off calling a ceiling grid guy. And if she was going to call a ceiling grid guy, she might as well have him change the tiles since he will most likely be cheaper than me. I hate the idea of somebody paying more than they need to. Probably makes me a bad businessman.

I've had similar walk through "how much to do x electrical?" You've looked at it and you say its going to be about $x, then the owner mentions this and that need to be done "while you're at it", then get offended when you tell them that'll cost more, as if they original $ for the original scope should have covered the "while you're at it".
But no, you're not a bad business man, just honest like 'sparkcontrol' said, and I've had a lot of customers show their appreciation by giving me future jobs without even looking for other bids, just because of that. I do have quite a few other trade professionals that I know their work, that I'll refer to the customer for just that occasion, or I'll just tell them I'd be glad to find a pro that can handle "x" more cost efficient than I would be able to as "x" is not my area of expertise

 

[kwired]

well....1/2 my calls are from HO's after the handyman was there.....

one in their honor!>

I know a place called Home Depot
They teach a class and you're good to go
They've wire and plumb and tile people
That do that crazy hack jive too

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive


Papa Bob Vila gonna reno my home
Said all that hack jive have got the go
Code geeks don't dare put them down
They're doin' the hack jive all over town

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

Mama, Mama look at Tim Allen
He's doin' that hack jive comedian
Grandpa tuned in to catch a line
Gonna do that hack jive one more time

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive


Well, osha and the lawyers and an nec chief
They all dig that crazy beat
Big Box store gave 'em all a treat
When they taught that hack jive with their feet

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

HD & Lowes got married last fall
They had a little merger, and a-that ain't all
They knew how to use the media, you see
Doin' that hack jive on TV

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

~RJ~
w/apologies to Jonny Otis

Not familiar with Jonny Otis, was thinking it had a hint of Dire Straits' "Money for nothin" while reading it though.

 

[readydave8]

Dire Straits

not eric clapton?

 

[Hv&Lv]

Not as cheap as you would think when all is said and done...
For example, for a job I'm pricing out now, one (1) opening is a 10 ft. + Quad Receptacle located outdoors.

All Materials $78.00
1 hour Labor @ $40/hr. (friend rate) = $40.00
T+M Subtotal = $118.00
30% Gross O/P on T+M = $35.40
(Net about 20%)

TOTAL = $153.40

Boom... $150. Just not $150 out of thin air like some of the guys I've encountered, especially GC's. Buy hey that's a GC for ya.

My math is a little different, but I’m going to use some of your numbers. I’m not in any way suggesting your wrong in your business and the way you run it, but I just want to throw this out there...

All Materials $78.00

1 hour Labor @ $40/hr. (friend rate) = $40.00
(I assume there’s a quid pro quo agreement here?
If not your being used)

T+M Subtotal = $118.00
30% Gross O/P on T+M = $35.40
(Net about 20%)

My additions in part...
401k contribution. 9k a year which is half the maximum,= $4.30/hr
Health insurance(going to assume family)=9.51/hr
Federal taxes, assume 11% effective tax rate on $60 per hour assuming that’s about you rate= $6.60/hr.
Company vehicle? Depreciation, repairs and replacement? 10 years assumption=4.32/hr.
Not including gas to the job..
..
So now we’re at $24.73/hr with just four items that you really should account for in your own business.
Retirement, health, travel and part of the taxes..

You ever take a vacation? Two or three weeks?
that time needs to be accounted for

What’s not included here and is assumed:
No vacation, no business expenses such as shop, tools, gas, business insurance, boots, clothes, etc.

A small business owner sees everyone with their hand out wanting money for some type of fee or taxes, and homeowners trying to talk them down on their price all the time...
So they have it hard from both ends.

If you want to take home at least $50per hour to help pay for state taxes, Savings account, family vehicles, house, food, kids, etc, your at $74.73/hr and just this is assuming you actually work 2080 billable hours, which you won’t. Probably 2/3 of that...
But you still have to be paid for time worked. There is actually a recent thread here about half days. Lots of electricians work an 8 hour day and can or will only bill out “job time”
$150 per hour? I don’t see that as unreasonable at all.
I see that as accounting for all the variables

I work for a utility now..
I used to have my own business.
Failed miserably because I didn’t account for all the variables.

 

[kwired]

not eric clapton?

what particular song you thinking, it's not triggering anything for me.

 

[JoeyD74]

My math is a little different, but I’m going to use some of your numbers. I’m not in any way suggesting your wrong in your business and the way you run it, but I just want to throw this out there...

All Materials $78.00

1 hour Labor @ $40/hr. (friend rate) = $40.00
(I assume there’s a quid pro quo agreement here?
If not your being used)

T+M Subtotal = $118.00
30% Gross O/P on T+M = $35.40
(Net about 20%)

My additions in part...
401k contribution. 9k a year which is half the maximum,= $4.30/hr
Health insurance(going to assume family)=9.51/hr
Federal taxes, assume 11% effective tax rate on $60 per hour assuming that’s about you rate= $6.60/hr.
Company vehicle? Depreciation, repairs and replacement? 10 years assumption=4.32/hr.
Not including gas to the job..
..
So now we’re at $24.73/hr with just four items that you really should account for in your own business.
Retirement, health, travel and part of the taxes..

You ever take a vacation? Two or three weeks?
that time needs to be accounted for

What’s not included here and is assumed:
No vacation, no business expenses such as shop, tools, gas, business insurance, boots, clothes, etc.

A small business owner sees everyone with their hand out wanting money for some type of fee or taxes, and homeowners trying to talk them down on their price all the time...
So they have it hard from both ends.

If you want to take home at least $50per hour to help pay for state taxes, Savings account, family vehicles, house, food, kids, etc, your at $74.73/hr and just this is assuming you actually work 2080 billable hours, which you won’t. Probably 2/3 of that...
But you still have to be paid for time worked. There is actually a recent thread here about half days. Lots of electricians work an 8 hour day and can or will only bill out “job time”
$150 per hour? I don’t see that as unreasonable at all.
I see that as accounting for all the variables

I work for a utility now..
I used to have my own business.
Failed miserably because I didn’t account for all the variables.

This is how people go under or make no more than working for someone, they forget to charge for everything you just talked about.

 

[grich]

what particular song you thinking, it's not triggering anything for me.

 

[Fred B]

well....1/2 my calls are from HO's after the handyman was there.....

one in their honor!>

I know a place called Home Depot
They teach a class and you're good to go
They've wire and plumb and tile people
That do that crazy hack jive too

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive


Papa Bob Vila gonna reno my home
Said all that hack jive have got the go
Code geeks don't dare put them down
They're doin' the hack jive all over town

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

Mama, Mama look at Tim Allen
He's doin' that hack jive comedian
Grandpa tuned in to catch a line
Gonna do that hack jive one more time

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive


Well, osha and the lawyers and an nec chief
They all dig that crazy beat
Big Box store gave 'em all a treat
When they taught that hack jive with their feet

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

HD & Lowes got married last fall
They had a little merger, and a-that ain't all
They knew how to use the media, you see
Doin' that hack jive on TV

Hack jive, hack jive, hack jive, doin' that crazy hack jive

~RJ~
w/apologies to Jonny Otis

Lol, You do the rewrite? Apologies? I think Jonny would be laughing.

 

[kwired]

Ok, heard that one as well as Eric Clapton.

Just reading lyrics only got me thinking of Dire Straight's Money for nothin', but that was more popular song in my time.

Just listening to the music intro I realized what song this went with.

 

[Jerramundi]

My math is a little different, but I’m going to use some of your numbers. I’m not in any way suggesting your wrong in your business and the way you run it, but I just want to throw this out there...

All Materials $78.00

1 hour Labor @ $40/hr. (friend rate) = $40.00
(I assume there’s a quid pro quo agreement here?
If not your being used)

T+M Subtotal = $118.00
30% Gross O/P on T+M = $35.40
(Net about 20%)

My additions in part...
401k contribution. 9k a year which is half the maximum,= $4.30/hr
Health insurance(going to assume family)=9.51/hr
Federal taxes, assume 11% effective tax rate on $60 per hour assuming that’s about you rate= $6.60/hr.
Company vehicle? Depreciation, repairs and replacement? 10 years assumption=4.32/hr.
Not including gas to the job..
..
So now we’re at $24.73/hr with just four items that you really should account for in your own business.
Retirement, health, travel and part of the taxes..

You ever take a vacation? Two or three weeks?
that time needs to be accounted for

What’s not included here and is assumed:
No vacation, no business expenses such as shop, tools, gas, business insurance, boots, clothes, etc.

A small business owner sees everyone with their hand out wanting money for some type of fee or taxes, and homeowners trying to talk them down on their price all the time...
So they have it hard from both ends.

If you want to take home at least $50per hour to help pay for state taxes, Savings account, family vehicles, house, food, kids, etc, your at $74.73/hr and just this is assuming you actually work 2080 billable hours, which you won’t. Probably 2/3 of that...
But you still have to be paid for time worked. There is actually a recent thread here about half days. Lots of electricians work an 8 hour day and can or will only bill out “job time”
$150 per hour? I don’t see that as unreasonable at all.
I see that as accounting for all the variables

I work for a utility now..
I used to have my own business.
Failed miserably because I didn’t account for all the variables.

I never said $150/hr was unreasonable. I said the people who just pull $150/hr our of thin air (i.e. the result of a single Google search) piss me off, lol. If you have math supportive of the $150/hr then have at it.

You also completely ignored the fact that I'm charging 30% O/P, which stands for Overhead/Profit. So no, I haven't forgotten to account for overhead costs. Do I go as far as to account for a "401k contribution?" No. Should I? Debatable.

 

[Jerramundi]

I used to have my own business.
Failed miserably because I didn’t account for all the variables.

All I know is I lose jobs all the time at my current rate. You can account for all the variables you want, but if you price yourself out of a job, none of that matters... and frankly, I don't want to be stuck just working for a bunch of a rich people. It is my goal to make myself affordable to working class people and the average working class person in this country earns <$40k/yr.