Handyman-type job calls

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
All I know is I lose jobs all the time at my current rate. You can account for all the variables you want, but if you price yourself out of a job, none of that matters... and frankly, I don't want to be stuck just working for a bunch of a rich people. It is my goal to make myself affordable to working class people and the average working class person in this country earns <$40k/yr.
If you want to target a specific group of people and they can't afford you, then you must lower your overhead so you can lower what you charge, and/or choose to have less profit.

Specialized and expensive equipment that you seldom use is overhead that isn't giving itself much return on investment or even is ending up being net loss just having it if you don't charge enough to cover it.

Your competition sets the bar to some extent. If you are way above them in usual pricing you are not getting many jobs regardless how good of work you may do. If you are way below them you may get lots of work, but may not make enough to cover your costs and have profits either.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
If you want to target a specific group of people and they can't afford you, then you must lower your overhead so you can lower what you charge, and/or choose to have less profit.
Way ahead of you brother, haha. My overhead has been minimized for my target demographic. I'll never be able to afford a tricked out F-150, a boat, or a vacation home at my rate, but I'm fine with that. You're absolutely right. It's a choice.

That's not to say you can't aim higher. I just believe in being transparent about it. The moment a high priced contractor shows up at my door with a tricked out F-150, I know exactly where my money is going... and it ain't towards the "necessities."

You show up in a F-150 Raptor and I'm not hiring you, but that's just me.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Way ahead of you brother, haha. My overhead has been minimized for my target demographic. I'll never be able to afford a tricked out F-150, a boat, or a vacation home at my rate, but I'm fine with that. You're absolutely right. It's a choice.

That's not to say you can't aim higher. I just believe in being transparent about it. The moment a high priced contractor shows up at my door with a tricked out F-150, I know exactly where my money is going... and it ain't towards the "necessities."

You show up in a F-150 Raptor and I'm not hiring you, but that's just me.
I take it none of your targeted clients own F-150's (tricked out to any extent anyway) boats, RV's etc?

Added toolboxes, ladder racks, etc. that might be common for service type business doesn't count as tricked out at all? Or only if it goes beyond a very basic and dull to look at design?
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
I take it none of your targeted clients own F-150's (tricked out to any extent anyway) boats, RV's etc?

Added toolboxes, ladder racks, etc. that might be common for service type business doesn't count as tricked out at all? Or only if it goes beyond a very basic and dull to look at design?
I've worked for some more well-to-do people without any problems. It's just not my main target demographic. I'm a vocal critic of trickle down economics and would prefer to see the working classes keep the majority of the surplus they create (an idea expressed by he whose name shall not be spoken, haha) and be self-sufficient to whatever degree one can be self-sufficient in an interdependent universe.

Most of my clients do not own these things. Most are average working class families with a mini-van and a modest single family home and/or apartment and that's how I like it, but as I said, I have worked for more well-to-do people without any problems.

And no, I don't consider "ladder racks" and "tool boxes" to be "tricked out," although one could fasten a ladder rack out of nothing but a couple sticks of uni-strut as I have done. I'm talking lift kits, led light bars, and super expensive image wraps. I'm talking F-250's and 350's that haul nothing but drywall, lol.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
I take it none of your targeted clients own F-150's (tricked out to any extent anyway) boats, RV's etc?

Added toolboxes, ladder racks, etc. that might be common for service type business doesn't count as tricked out at all? Or only if it goes beyond a very basic and dull to look at design?
Look, I'm far from perfect and never claimed to be. No human being on the face of this Earth follows their publicly stated principles to a T. I try to stay informed, study politics, philosophy, etc. and make an informed decision about what my principles are as a person and an electrician, and try to live by those stated principles... but again, not perfect.

I was just giving an example of my pricing system as a way to show that, despite my general criticisms of what I call "the magical $150/hr" that some GC's and even some EC's seem to pull out of thin air, that sometimes I do end up w/ a $150/hr opening cost and that that's okay as long as it's mathematically based... and not just the result of a single Google search about what the maximum market price is you can get away with.

My initial post was mostly a joke towards Larry about his $150/hr comment that has obviously ruffled some feathers... If my comments about the "the magical $150/hr" bother people, then clearly said people have some doubt in their minds as to whether or not their costs are truly justifiable and that's on them to figure out.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
@Jerramundi, you should be congratulated for your acts of charity. I service very few lower to lower-middle income homeowners because they cannot afford my services. Could you please talk to the business lawyers in my area and ask them to be charitable too. I would like to use lawyer services more often, but $300-500/hr keeps me from doing so.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
@Jerramundi, you should be congratulated for your acts of charity. I service very few lower to lower-middle income homeowners because they cannot afford my services. Could you please talk to the business lawyers in my area and ask them to be charitable too. I would like to use lawyer services more often, but $300-500/hr keeps me from doing so.
I hear you man. It's ridiculously expensive and works against the interests of the working class and truly small business. We're doing this country a disservice by making it so that only people with $1M in the bank can start a business.

For example, LegalZoom wanted something like $750.00 to file for the LLC and I did it on my own for the base line cost of $150 or whatever it is now-a-days. Saved hundreds of dollars just doing my own research and filing on my own.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
@Jerramundi, you should be congratulated for your acts of charity. I service very few lower to lower-middle income homeowners because they cannot afford my services. Could you please talk to the business lawyers in my area and ask them to be charitable too. I would like to use lawyer services more often, but $300-500/hr keeps me from doing so.
Maybe try looking for a lawyer that doesn't have the super expensive condo on the lake? They do exist, albeit far and few between.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Look, I'm far from perfect and never claimed to be. No human being on the face of this Earth follows their publicly stated principles to a T. I try to stay informed, study politics, philosophy, etc. and make an informed decision about what my principles are as a person and an electrician, and try to live by those stated principles... but again, not perfect.

I was just giving an example of my pricing system as a way to show that, despite my general criticisms of what I call "the magical $150/hr" that some GC's and even some EC's seem to pull out of thin air, that sometimes I do end up w/ a $150/hr opening cost and that that's okay as long as it's mathematically based... and not just the result of a single Google search about what the maximum market price is you can get away with.

My initial post was mostly a joke towards Larry about his $150/hr comment that has obviously ruffled some feathers... If my comments about the "the magical $150/hr" bother people, then clearly said people have some doubt in their minds as to whether or not their costs are truly justifiable and that's on them to figure out.
My example was just trying to stay on the right side of the economic bell curve.
You do you.
I’m going to get all I can while I can.
lake house and all...
(As I type this from the deck of my boat soaking up the sun)..😉
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I've worked for some the wealthiest around here as well as some the poorest around here.

I've had not so wealthy people that still owed me money, moved out of the area and never expected to see any more payment, yet they continued to pay me monthly until paid in full. I've had people that most likely had the money but completely stiffed me anyway even on just 50 to couple hundred dollar call.

I have some that you can send bills and reminders in mail all you want, you will get slow response at mailing a payment back, but bring the bill to them and they always write you a check as you wait.

People all have their own quirks.

I've found those that don't want to pay what you are asking for are those that usually can afford to do so, they just don't want to do so.

Those that can't afford it too easily still understand it is what it is as everything else is sort of expensive as well these days so they don't see your price as being your fault.

I was on a vacation a few weeks ago, stayed at a lakeside resort, the sign on a fuel pump at the docks for refueling rental boats said there was a $400 charge that would be a hold on your credit card would be charged for every transaction. Would be refunded within two business days, but still is holding $400 of your card (maybe a daily spending cap is effected) hostage so to speak until it is refunded. That plus the gas was nearly $4.00 a gallon when at the regular stations was only like $2.05 or so. This is maybe a little bit we need to charge so much to make it, but at same time we sort of have you in a position where you have no easily obtainable other choice so we can get you anyway.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
My example was just trying to stay on the right side of the economic bell curve.
You do you.
I’m going to get all I can while I can.
lake house and all...
(As I type this from the deck of my boat soaking up the sun)..😉
If it makes you happy go for it. I know for a fact it won't make me happy. The time spent chasing it is time I could spend just kicking it on the couch watching a movie with my loved ones. I'll take that over the boat all day long.

I've tried it. I've spent 20 hrs out of the day chasing it and I can't stand how disconnected its' made me from family.

To each their own. ✌
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
Ultimately business ethics is changing in this country. Businesses like Whole Foods is just the start. There is a shift in consciousness occurring altering business ethics from the conventional wisdom of (1) "be profitable first in order to be ethical..." to (2) "be ethical first and profit will come as a result" and I support this shift.

Granted there are plenty of valid criticisms of business like Whole Foods as to whether or not they are actually prioritizing ethics or it is just a smoke screen for profit seeking, but the beginning of the aforementioned shift is clear as day.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I didn't mean to imply my hourly rate is $150. That's what I use as my first-hour minimum, then $100 per hour.

The only work I openly charge hourly for is trouble-shooting or work that obviously will contain unknowns.

I prefer to look over a job and the give a flat price, which I do base on the time I estimate at the above rate.

I benefit from working faster, and the customer doesn't feel compelled to see if I'm working every minute.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
I didn't mean to imply my hourly rate is $150. That's what I use as my first-hour minimum, then $100 per hour.

The only work I openly charge hourly for is trouble-shooting or work that obviously will contain unknowns.

I prefer to look over a job and the give a flat price, which I do base on the time I estimate at the above rate.

I benefit from working faster, and the customer doesn't feel compelled to see if I'm working every minute.
I know Larry, I'm not going after you. I only mentioned you to clarify that my initial comment was mostly a joke directed at you.
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
The only work I openly charge hourly for is trouble-shooting or work that obviously will contain unknowns.
Well to be fair, even opening type costs are still T&M based, even though we typically look at (1) Opening Costs and (2) T&M as being distinctive. It's just that Opening Costs if given in a quote aren't subject to change, less a change order.

I struggled to figure this out in the beginning. I was like.. if the two are absolutely distinctive, how the heck do we figure out our opening costs? Then I learned, lol.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If it makes you happy go for it. I know for a fact it won't make me happy. The time spent chasing it is time I could spend just kicking it on the couch watching a movie with my loved ones. I'll take that over the boat all day long.

I've tried it. I've spent 20 hrs out of the day chasing it and I can't stand how disconnected its' made me from family.

To each their own. ✌
But you can get the best of both worlds and watch the movie in your boat ;)
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
But you can get the best of both worlds and watch the movie in your boat ;)
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Ultimately business ethics is changing in this country. Businesses like Whole Foods is just the start. There is a shift in consciousness occurring altering business ethics from the conventional wisdom of (1) "be profitable first in order to be ethical..." to (2) "be ethical first and profit will come as a result" and I support this shift.

Granted there are plenty of valid criticisms of business like Whole Foods as to whether or not they are actually prioritizing ethics or it is just a smoke screen for profit seeking, but the beginning of the aforementioned shift is clear as day.
I know little about Whole Foods, nearest store to me probably about 150 miles away, so kind of don't care to even pay much attention.

I do know that things have gotten to the point that many businesses need to go "big" or don't go at all because you will have a hard time even making a profit trying to run a small operation.

You need to be able to buy products, supplies, ingredients, etc. in large volume to get a decent purchase price. That often does you no good if you don't have the volume of sales, production or whatever to use those things up in a timely manner, and worse yet if they will spoil or otherwise deteriorate or depreciate if you store them for too long.

Happens to all types of businesses. Small farmers nearly extinct around here. No more dairy farmers with only a few dozen cows to milk, needs to be at least 1000 or more or not worth even trying, unless you have some other specialty niche that won't be cheap, like offering organic product.

Swine facilities same way. Only ones you find that are operating with a hundred head or less are doing it organic and/or for local sales to be processed at a local meat butcher/locker. The big buyers like Smithfield, Tyson, etc. aren't even interested in small quantity purchases and won't pay enough to break even anyway.

Corn, soybeans - not many farming just a few hundred acres, won't ever make a profit doing that. You need 2-3000 acres, but along with that means you need the newer larger machines to be able to get it harvested before the winter hits, which means if you get the bigger combine it does you no good if you don't also get the larger wagons to be able to keep up when hauling it away, and larger conveyors so you can unload them faster as well as more storage facility to store the crop in.

I mentioned those cause they are somewhat direct impact to me because I mostly work for those people that run those businesses or a few others that are here because those people do have other goods and services needs but wouldn't be here without those farmers. That said my electrical supply houses sort of fit similar descriptions. When I started out we had a couple places that were small suppliers, spread out over a few locations in a region that is not very populated, with maybe a headquarters in a larger city in the region. Now they all have been bought out by larger corporations. Might have left many the same locations open, might like to boast "we have that in stock", but then they tell you it is in another store that is 500 miles away. Does me no good when I need it today. And has turned into a lot of things not being in stock in my local store but rather being stocked in one the larger branches in a city 150 miles away. "We can have that tomorrow" becomes a pretty common phrase on items you might expect to always be available.
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
Well to be fair, even opening type costs are still T&M based, even though we typically look at (1) Opening Costs and (2) T&M as being distinctive. It's just that Opening Costs if given in a quote aren't subject to change, less a change order.

I struggled to figure this out in the beginning. I was like.. if the two are absolutely distinctive, how the heck do we figure out our opening costs? Then I learned, lol.
just curious how long you been in business? @Jerramundi
 

Jerramundi

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Occupation
Licensed Residential Electrician
just curious how long you been in business? @Jerramundi
Um, for myself? Since 2015. Been in the field since I was 20 and I'm 33 now.
But I'm not supporting a family (i.e. keeping overhead costs low).
I had my fun when I was younger, but nothing clicked and I was smart enough to use protection unlike some, so I guess I'm flying solo for the remainder of this crazy dream that is life, lol. No girlies on my radar for that job position, lol.
 
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