Home Inspection report "double taps"

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mbrooke said:
That is true unfortunately. However my concern is when they miss the real dangers. I used to see a lot of panels with MWBC on the same phase and nothing mentioned by the HI. On one house I was buying HI failed to call out a missing chimney linear for a high efficiency gas furnace that was put in place of an oil fired burner.
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That is why they need to learn some basic theory, not just electrical but also for gas/ventilation, load bearing theory for the construction methods, and things like that and not pay such close attention to things that don't present as much hazard. Sometimes the obvious is about to slap you in the face when you are too busy looking for the minor details - just to prove how thorough you may be.
 
kwired said:
That is why they need to learn some basic theory, not just electrical but also for gas/ventilation, load bearing theory for the construction methods, and things like that and not pay such close attention to things that don't present as much hazard. Sometimes the obvious is about to slap you in the face when you are too busy looking for the minor details - just to prove how thorough you may be.
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Point well said :) I think HIs should go to a high school type setting with a dozen classes each taught by an master plumber, HVAC tech, electrician, mason, carpenter, inspector, ect.
 
mbrooke said:
Point well said :) I think HIs should go to a high school type setting with a dozen classes each taught by an master plumber, HVAC tech, electrician, mason, carpenter, inspector, ect.
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Will these be the same master electricians that come to this website and say they were taught things like 'no double taps and no splicing in panels'?:?
 
Fulthrotl said:
yep... the "no splices in "panelboards" refers to the panelboard
itself, as it was explained to me, NOT to the enclosure the panelboard
is located inside of.

what i was not aware of is that it seems that the enclosure can
be used as a raceway for conductors fed from other panels?

my personal opinion is that is not a safe install. i'm sure if
you look at the fine print notes, there will be a randy's corallary
to this portion of the code. i am a bit miffed i wasn't asked before
they allowed this, however.

so, it seems to the OP that you can wire nut away, and just print
out that section of the code, and paste it next to the panel.......
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Randy, splicing in a panel was always allowed, it was just not written clearly/explicitly in previous versions.

And yes, panel board enclosures may be used as a raceway to pass conductors through to feed other equipment.
 
GerryB said:
My niece is selling her home. It is a small house, she has 100amp GE panel. There were 4 double taps. The panel had one space available, so I split one of the taps, it had the dishwasher and the mud room. The other three I spliced and put one wire to the breaker. I went through the house with my niece and they were minimal loads, one double was doing entrance lights and attic, one we couldn't even find. Ge doesn't make tandem breakers, I could have put in Siemons or Murray but they are not listed.
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GerryB said:
I should have just put in a couple of Siemans breakers I guess. Again the inspection report just said "repair". (those double taps have to be the first thing the first day they teach at home inspection school)
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People complain about a home inspection report but if any of you were inspecting this panel would you write it up or pretend you didn't see it.

The inspector did the only thing he could do, write it up and suggest it be repaired by a licensed electrician. He didn't make any comments about how the repair was to be made, only that it be done by a professional.

The next time the home is inspected the siemen's breakers would have been noticed.
 
Every HI-initiated repair I've ever done was started due to their written report. When done, I prepare my own written report.

Almost all of them contain something like:
"Item 7, GFCI in bathroom does not function and is not grounded. Replacement of device and proper grounding recommended."

My response; "GFCI receptacle are allowed to be installed on ungrounded circuits per NEC 406.4(D)(2)(c). Use of the common 3-light plug-in testers is not an approved method of testing GFCI protection per UL White Book section QCYU. Only the receptacles' built-in test button is approved for testing the function if a GFCI device. Device was tested using this method and device performed as designed and intended."

I give the report not only to the person that hired me, but I mail a copy to the HI. Hopefully they will learn from it.
 
growler said:
People complain about a home inspection report but if any of you were inspecting this panel would you write it up or pretend you didn't see it.

The inspector did the only thing he could do, write it up and suggest it be repaired by a licensed electrician. He didn't make any comments about how the repair was to be made, only that it be done by a professional.

The next time the home is inspected the siemen's breakers would have been noticed.
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:thumbsup:
 
480sparky said:
Every HI-initiated repair I've ever done was started due to their written report. When done, I prepare my own written report.

Almost all of them contain something like:
"Item 7, GFCI in bathroom does not function and is not grounded. Replacement of device and proper grounding recommended."

My response; "GFCI receptacle are allowed to be installed on ungrounded circuits per NEC 406.4(D)(2)(c). Use of the common 3-light plug-in testers is not an approved method of testing GFCI protection per UL White Book section QCYU. Only the receptacles' built-in test button is approved for testing the function if a GFCI device. Device was tested using this method and device performed as designed and intended."

I give the report not only to the person that hired me, but I mail a copy to the HI. Hopefully they will learn from it.
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If it's a two wire branch circuit and doen't contain a ground that is fine but what about circuits that should be grounded and the ground is open. Were these receptacles marked with the "no equipment ground" sticker?

The inspector is letting the buyer know that certain parts of their home are not grounded.

I got involved by doing an electrical inspection after a home was purchased and the buyer thinking that it had been rewired. I had to tell the homeowner that they had a new service and some of the wire that they could see in the basement was new but the rest was still knob and tube and about 80 years old.

The home inspector had written up the missing grounds on all receptacles (except kitchen) and suggested they get an electrician before they purchase the home. They didn't GFCI protect or mark the receptacles (no equipment ground) on the three pronged receptacles.

A home inspection is non-invasive and the home inspector doesn't need to figure out why a ground is missing, only that it is missing.

A home inspection is not a code inspection and missing grounds can be a matter of concern for a home buyer. This is information the buyer may not be aware of.
 
growler said:
If it's a two wire branch circuit and doen't contain a ground that is fine but what about circuits that should be grounded and the ground is open. .........
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HI's don't open up the boxes. They just shove in their $3 G-B testers into the receps and swear the wiring is going to kill someone or burn the house down. I open the box and find 14-2 (no ground, or even that #18 bonding strip) from the '60s.



growler said:
.......Were these receptacles marked with the "no equipment ground" sticker?.........
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Even if it was, do you honestly think the average HI is going to look for it?


I think most HI's graduated from of the class of "Last Thursday, 10:30AM". :cool:
 
kwired said:
I like that idea, explain what you did for each issue on the report and why you chose your solution.

Many times there is more then one possible solution to a problem.

Just because three cables come to the panel and are junctioned together there doesn't mean anything is wrong with that, you effectively do same thing if you ran a home run to an outlet box and then split the circuit three different directions.
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Had to requote this as it says it all. What would be the difference if you put a j box under the panel and fed it with a two wire circuit?????
 
480sparky said:
HI's don't open up the boxes. They just shove in their $3 G-B testers into the receps and swear the wiring is going to kill someone or burn the house down. I open the box and find 14-2 (no ground, or even that #18 bonding strip) from the '60s.
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Home inspectors are not supposed to open electrical junction boxes. Yes they plug in their testers and it's either good or not. If it shows an open ground that is what they write up.

To understand an inspection it's important to understand the inspection criteria. The check list of things to be inspected and how they will be inspected.

If you go to the NACHI web site they explain what they look for during an inspection (check list) and what they don't even cover during an inspection. It makes it much easier to understand what we are dealing with.

If home inspectors start opening electrical boxes they would leave themselves open to a lot of liability. They are not electricians and can only go so far.

Those $3 dollar testers only fit in three pronged outlets and if there is reversed polarity or a missing ground what should they write up?

Those inspectors are not code inspectors and no one can force anyone to make any repairs. What they write up is what they see as matters of concern for the buyer.
 
Let's not make this a bash the HI thread or it's a goner. Just like electricians, inspectors and engineers there are good and not so good. We're here to share ideas and learn not bash one particular trade. HI's have a place in the inspection industry and often make recommendations that puts money in the pockets of electricians. :thumbsup:
 
infinity said:
Let's not make this a bash the HI thread or it's a goner. Just like electricians, inspectors and engineers there are good and not so good. We're here to share ideas and learn not bash one particular trade. HI's have a place in the inspection industry and often make recommendations that puts money in the pockets of electricians. :thumbsup:
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Well said. When I started the thread I thought I might take some bashing, but reading the posts and checking the book made me comfortable with what I did. There were open grounds also, which turned out to be someone pulling feeds from bx boxes with romex and not bonding the ground to the box. This reinforced my thought that the 3 wire romex red/black double taps were wires installed by someone not sure of what they needed. As you said though we make money on their reports. Coincidentally I had a second HI report job this past week for a garage panel that was obviously wired by a non electrician. Took half a day to fix, HI's report said, "needs work in garage"
 
infinity said:
Let's not make this a bash the HI thread or it's a goner. Just like electricians, inspectors and engineers there are good and not so good. We're here to share ideas and learn not bash one particular trade. HI's have a place in the inspection industry and often make recommendations that puts money in the pockets of electricians. :thumbsup:
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Question. Why does this forum oppress free speech? I have nothing against the HI industry, but its a known fact from personal experience that a high number of them miss defects and/or call out code complaint installations. This should be changed for a number of reasons.
 
mbrooke said:
On one house I was buying HI failed to call out a missing chimney linear for a high efficiency gas furnace that was put in place of an oil fired burner.
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mbrooke said:
Question. Why does this forum oppress free speech? I have nothing against the HI industry, but its a known fact from personal experience that a high number of them miss defects and/or call out code complaint installations. This should be changed for a number of reasons.
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If you read what is covered by a home inspection you will notice that the interior of flues and chimneys is not covered. Not part of the inspection criteria.

Again I say that it's important to understand what a home inspection really is.

Check out what is covered under electrical and other areas. The scope of the inspection is very limited and it is ment to be.

http://www.nachi.org/sop.htm#electrical
 
mbrooke said:
Question. Why does this forum oppress free speech?
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:lol:

You are free to go to other places to bash HIs if that is what you find enlightening.

Here we try not to let any trade or profession get bashed. If that is too much oppression for you I am jealous of your easy life. :D
 
growler said:
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Those inspectors are not code inspectors and no one can force anyone to make any repairs. What they write up is what they see as matters of concern for the buyer.
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Yet conventional wisdom seems to dictate their report sets above the Ten Commandments. What is in that report MUST be addressed or the sale falls through.
 
iwire said:
:lol:

You are free to go to other places to bash HIs if that is what you find enlightening.
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Not bash, ways home inspections can be improved or common defects missed during inspection.



Here we try not to let any trade or profession get bashed. If that is too much oppression for you I am jealous of your easy life. :D
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Im thinking 2 separate concepts are being mixed together (personal attacks vs flaws in a working system).
 
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