Home Inspection report "double taps"

[growler]

Yet conventional wisdom seems to dictate their report sets above the Ten Commandments. What is in that report MUST be addressed or the sale falls through.

In any form of sale it depends on how badly the seller wishes to sell and how interested the buyer is.

I have seen many items that were negotiated, (price reduced) rather than repair.

I saw one where the builder knocked of $10K and the buyer went for it, to repair would have only cost $20-$30K ( this was not electrical).

 

[kwired]

HI's don't..... and swear the wiring is going to kill someone or burn the house down.

That is one problem, any deficiency they point out seems to be taken by a potential buyer as a severe situation, when in reality it often is just something that maybe needs somewhat minor attention. Buying a home that is not brand new is like buying a used car - it will not be perfect and there is no guarantee everything is going to be "new or like new". 50 year old home will not have newest things installed unless they were added later.

Home inspectors are not supposed to open electrical junction boxes...

Does same apply to panel covers? If so how do they find two wires on a breaker? I don't think there isn't anything they can't look at. If owners/buyers want to know what condition things are they about have to look at some things that involve removing covers or they will not get that good of a report on the actual conditions.

Question. Why does this forum oppress free speech? I have nothing against the HI industry, but its a known fact from personal experience that a high number of them miss defects and/or call out code complaint installations. This should be changed for a number of reasons.

Not free speech that is unacceptable, but rather "bullying" even if it is indirectly done.

You can point out mistakes made by certain people without demoralizing them, that is acceptable on this site.

But the acceptable bashing level is higher for AFCI manufacturers then most others

 

[kwired]

In any form of sale it depends on how badly the seller wishes to sell and how interested the buyer is.

I have seen many items that were negotiated, (price reduced) rather than repair.

I saw one where the builder knocked of $10K and the buyer went for it, to repair would have only cost $20-$30K ( this was not electrical).

Exactly, many HI reports that get hashed out on this or similar sites the whole concept of what the HI is about is forgotten. It is nothing more then a tool used by the buyer to negotiate with the seller, or in some cases maybe the other way around, but usually there is going to be some deficiencies to report.

None of the deficiencies reported are required to be remedied - it is just a report of current conditions based on the HI's opinions.

If there is something serious that comes up, and the owner questions it - getting an opinion from a better qualified professional is the next step.

If there is a list of things electrical related - hire an electrician to come fix or make further recommendations to some issues - which I believe is what happened to the OP of this thread.

 

[stevenje]

Yet conventional wisdom seems to dictate their report sets above the Ten Commandments. What is in that report MUST be addressed or the sale falls through.

Back in the day before the HI industry, a potential buyer would call up the individual trades and get an inspection/evaluation of the buildings and property. Not anymore. The HI industry has created a "one stop shopping experience" for the real estate business. The cost and convenience of dealing with one company is the driving force.
They are generalist in all fields and experts in none. The reports are bargaining chips for the buyer. No more, no less.

As Sparky has said, these reports are taken as gospel and carry much more weight that they should.

How any HI can take a couple of eight hour classes and then have the authority to write a report that has such an impact on the sale of a home is beyond me.

I won't even began to get into the discussion of if they are qualified to inspect the electrical systems.

 

[growler]

Does same apply to panel covers? If so how do they find two wires on a breaker? I don't think there isn't anything they can't look at. If owners/buyers want to know what condition things are they about have to look at some things that involve removing covers or they will not get that good of a report on the actual conditions.

Kwired I didn't make the rules, these are standard SOPs at the national level.

The home inspectors don't even rake away insullation to find boxes without covers. It is a visual, non-invasive inspection. If they can't see it then it doesn't get inspected.

If a home buyer really wants to know the condition of a home they can call a structural engineer, plumber, carpenter , HVAC, electrical professional to give an in depth report on the condition of the property. They may spend a few grand but if they are buying a million dollar home it's probably worth it.

 

[mbrooke]

Not free speech that is unacceptable, but rather "bullying" even if it is indirectly done.

If thats was so 1/2 the posts on this site would be considered bullying. Saying a home inspector is wrong on code is no different then the code disagreements here. Similarly if I told a an electrician they would probably botch an open heart surgery, its not meant to be a personal attack but rather based on them not having completed years of medical training. Most things of complexity require extensive education and training in order to complete successfully.

You can point out mistakes made by certain people without demoralizing them, that is acceptable on this site.

Where have I demoralized someone? (if I have done so) :blink:

But the acceptable bashing level is higher for AFCI manufacturers then most others

It does seem that way I must admit. But in the case of AFCI manufactures (minus the unsubstantiated accusations) no evidence exists to prove the claims being made by manufactures.

 

[growler]

Saying a home inspector is wrong on code is no different then the code disagreements here.

A Home Inspection "is not" a code inspection.

If you can't get the professionals in the field to understand that then what chance do you have of getting a home buyer to understand it? :?

 

[jumper]

A Home Inspection "is not" a code inspection.

If you can't get the professionals in the field to understand that then what chance do you have of getting a home buyer to understand it? :?

Well said.:thumbsup:

 

[mbrooke]

A Home Inspection "is not" a code inspection.

If you can't get the professionals in the field to understand that then what chance do you have of getting a home buyer to understand it? :?

Depending on how you look at it thats true, but when HIs claim "x" is not correct they need to have something to back it up. Further, a home inspection is not completely scrubbed of code to begin with. Sometimes the only way to know if something is allowed or not is via code.

 

[growler]

Depending on how you look at it thats true, but when HIs claim "x" is not correct they need to have something to back it up. Further, a home inspection is not completely scrubbed of code to begin with. Sometimes the only way to know if something is allowed or not is via code.

Give an example. What is this "X" you are talking about?

HIs often write up missing grounds on ungrounded branch circuits. The grounds are missing. If they have three pronged receptacles the only legal way they can exist is for the circuit to be GFCI protected and marked with the "no equipment ground" sticker.

If they write that a junction box is loose do they need a code to back it up?

I see lots of inspection reports where they suggest that GFCI protection be added to kitchens, bathrooms, garage, and exterior receptacles. The code doesn't require this for an existing installation but still a pretty good idea.

 

[mbrooke]

Give an example. What is this "X" you are talking about?

Typical scenario: home inspector says #12 on a 30amp breaker for an AC unit is a defect. My question to them is "why do you think so?"

HIs often write up missing grounds on ungrounded branch circuits. The grounds are missing. If they have three pronged receptacles the only legal way they can exist is for the circuit to be GFCI protected and marked with the "no equipment ground" sticker.

They do, but Ive seen them miss other dangers like MWBC on the same phase, bare EGCs in conduit going to under ground pools, missing main bonding jumpers, ect.

All these could be called a bigger danger then a missing EGC. BTW, something I tell all HIs: never assume a 3 prong tester will tell you an outlet is properly grounded. First check to see if 3 wire NM is leaving the panel (or the separately run ground makes it back to the panel) . A boot leg ground or a ground going to a random ground rod can light a tester on what would otherwise be a dangerous code violation.

If they write that a junction box is loose do they need a code to back it up?

No, because this is indeed a code violation when its being written up.

I see lots of inspection reports where they suggest that GFCI protection be added to kitchens, bathrooms, garage, and exterior receptacles. The code doesn't require this for an existing installation but still a pretty good idea.

In this case if they use the term "recommended" then yes, they are contributing to safety.

 

[growler]

Typical scenario: home inspector says #12 on a 30amp breaker for an AC unit is a defect. My question to them is "why do you think so?"

They do, but Ive seen them miss other dangers like MWBC on the same phase, bare EGCs in conduit going to under ground pools, missing main bonding jumpers, ect.

How would a home inspector know that the #12 on a 30 amp breaker is going to an AC unit?

He is not required to make sure the panel is marked correctly or that any equipment that is not already working is turned on.

I think you will find that the other items that you mentioned are not covered by the inspection criteria.

Again, read what is actually covered by a General Home Inspection.

They don't contract to do an in-depth electrical inspection and many items are not covered.

The real problem that I see is that people think a home inspection is something that it is not.
I recommend that home buyers and sellers read what they are actually getting when they get a home inspection.

If you go for the cheap physical at the doctor's office you don't get much either.

 

[mbrooke]

How would a home inspector know that the #12 on a 30 amp breaker is going to an AC unit?

Circuit directory. Ive seen this issue at least a hundred times come up on HI forums.

He is not required to make sure the panel is marked correctly or that any equipment that is not already working is turned on.

I know, but he can figure it out other ways.

I think you will find that the other items that you mentioned are not covered by the inspection criteria.

Again, read what is actually covered by a General Home Inspection.

They don't contract to do an in-depth electrical inspection and many items are not covered.

Then why have a home inspection?

The real problem that I see is that people think a home inspection is something that it is not.
I recommend that home buyers and sellers read what they are actually getting when they get a home inspection.

If you go for the cheap physical at the doctor's office you don't get much either.

In truth the fine print bails an HI out of almost anything, but if we rely on that we are basically saying its ok to let someone cone us out of money and give false security.

Physicals may not be an x-ray, but they still save lives. In any case who is conducting it? A doctor with training and a license, not a fortune teller.

 

[growler]

How would a home inspector know that the #12 on a 30 amp breaker is going to an AC unit?

Circuit directory. Ive seen this issue at least a hundred times come up on HI forums.

Many panel schedules are not even filled out and the one's that are will many times be wrong.

I don't trust them.

If this #12 is going to an AC unit I will check the minimum circuit ampacity and if it's correct I will state that it is on the invoice. If this were the only fault found it would be a waste of money but so far that has never happened.

 

[growler]

Then why have a home inspection?

At times they do find serious problems. They take nice pictures and there is a certain amount of documentation.

I looked at a home inspection report last years that was over a 100 pages long and had many pictures of what was found wrong. After looking at the report I didn't even bother to look at the job. House flipper and I knew my estimate would be more than they would ever spend.

Saved me some time and money (fuel).

 

[growler]

A doctor with training and a license, not a fortune teller.

A home inspector is not a fortune teller. They actually visit the job site and document any faults they find, It's true that they may not catch them all.

If I go into a house and point out the same fault the owner may see this as a conflict of interest.

If the seller and the buyer are both satisfied with the way things work why should we complain?

By the way, what qualifications does it take to be president of the united states? This is the person with their finger on the button that could end it all. Yes, the village idiot does qualify for president. And people worry about home inspections?

 

[iwire]

Then why have a home inspection?

My bank required it.


Plus they really do find serious issues at a time when money will be spent to fix those issues.

 

[mbrooke]

My bank required it.


Plus they really do find serious issues at a time when money will be spent to fix those issues.

Required, but doesnt mean its being done right.

 

[mbrooke]

A home inspector is not a fortune teller. They actually visit the job site and document any faults they find, It's true that they may not catch them all.

And this is where the problem lies. Being on HI sites for over 10 years I can truly say training needs to be overhauled.

If I go into a house and point out the same fault the owner may see this as a conflict of interest.

If the seller and the buyer are both satisfied with the way things work why should we complain?

Because when someone looses a life then they will ask what went wrong. HIs have been sued before. Its not a conflict of interest when it can be proven as a defect.

By the way, what qualifications does it take to be president of the united states? This is the person with their finger on the button that could end it all. Yes, the village idiot does qualify for president. And people worry about home inspections?

Not much by the constitution, but give me one example of where an average off the street joe became president in the last 150 years? Second the one button deal is what they tell us, and even then congress/military has also to make a call in order for it to work .

 

[mbrooke]

Many panel schedules are not even filled out and the one's that are will many times be wrong.

I don't trust them.

If this #12 is going to an AC unit I will check the minimum circuit ampacity and if it's correct I will state that it is on the invoice. If this were the only fault found it would be a waste of money but so far that has never happened.

Still not winning the argument. Ive been on HI sites where it has been confirmed x wire goes to an AC. I still get "#12 can not go on a circuit larger then 20amps".

I know many electricians who bite their tongue and change it anyways, but what is that enabling?