home smoke detectors

[radiopet]

Sure I can Bob.....I go with previous interps. by others higher on the food chain than I am and if they happen to meet my interp. then all is good.

Granted the verbiage stinks and does get resolved in 2008......Thanks again however for your opinion on it as it is well noted.

 

[iwire]

Sure I can Bob.....I go with previous interps.

It really makes no difference to me as I still have not had the need to install an AFCI. :smile:

But I really have a hard time accepting that it's 'the bedroom' for one code section and it's not 'the bedroom' for another section.

Honestly .... if this went to court how do you see it playing out? I think a judge would find that hard to accept as well.

Is a smoke detector required in this closet as well?

 

[radiopet]

nope.....as the one for the "Bedroom" is taken care of the issue. I think many see it different ways and since I believe AFCI's do what they are supposed to I have no problem with it and in reality it probably becomes a non-issue anyway as I dont know anyone who would run a dedicated circuit to the bedroom lights ( yeah I guess i could happen but I have wired my share of dwellings so I dont find it quite the choice of most electricians ) so I dont think it really becomes a problem.

I think due to a lack of what a bedroom actually is, and due to the fact in the 2005 NEC it does not spell out a closet either in these regards that it is not unfair to say since it is part of the bedroom that it is considered in the bedroom.

I could see it taken both ways....but if I am having to make the call in an area I inspect then I would consider it part of the bedroom and require it to be AFCI protected...I would make that call.

It is my belief that even as far back as 1999 the WANTED intent of the AFCI was to make it as it is in the 2008 NEC but just could not get it their because of technology issues....so it would not be far fetched to believe the intent is to have the "Bedroom Closet" be considered part of the bedroom and since the outlet is in the closet that is in the bedroom...it be AFCI protected...

We can agree to disagree.....

 

[dnem]

Weirdo..... Or Wierdo :grin:

I before e.....huh??? :-?

Bob, what if you come home from vacation and your mother in law was vacuuming and the power was not on but then she turned it on and the breaker tripped and then she left it off but then a burglar came in and stole the copper wiring and you thought it was on but it wasn't because there was no wiring and then there was a fire because oil soaked rags were left and they spontaneously combusted and then you realized the smoke detectors batteries were swipped by the robber for his ipod because he needed tunes to steal by..........Is that how you want this to go down?

"Is that how you want this to go down?"
Come on, Bob ! . We're all waiting for an answer to this deeply probing question that strikes to the heart of the American experience ! . Are you unAmerican or just playing politics ?

Why are you avoiding this important issue ? . How do you explain your indifference to this crisis in our society with the oil soaked rags and robbery running unchecked and rampant !?

Are you that callus to the suffering of others ?

Bob !! . Are you there ?

 

[peter d]

Bob, what if you come home from vacation and your mother in law was vacuuming and the power was not on but then she turned it on and the breaker tripped and then she left it off but then a burglar came in and stole the copper wiring and you thought it was on but it wasn't because there was no wiring and then there was a fire because oil soaked rags were left and they spontaneously combusted and then you realized the smoke detectors batteries were swipped by the robber for his ipod because he needed tunes to steal by..........Is that how you want this to go down?

By far one of the best "What if" scenarios I've ever read on these forums.

 

[quogueelectric]

I am required to put the smoke alarms on the lighting circuit of the master bedroom so that if it trips you will know right away unless you are on vacation.

 

[dnem]

I am required to put the smoke alarms on the lighting circuit of the master bedroom so that if it trips you will know right away unless you are on vacation.

"I am required ....."
by whom ?

 

[wbalsam1]

I am required to put the smoke alarms on the lighting circuit of the master bedroom so that if it trips you will know right away unless you are on vacation.

Years ago in 9 Executive B of the Official Compilation of Codes, Rules and Regulations at Section 1060.10(d) the code read "The Device shall be directly connected to the lighting circuit of the dwelling unit or sleeping room, with no intervening wall switch."

But that has long since gone the route of the wooly mammoth and is now covered in the Residential Code of NYS at Section R313.1.2 Power Source. The language is just not there that would require the smoke alarms to be on a lighting circuit.

 

[pudge565]

isn't in the 08 code that all circuits other than gfci protected outlets (small appliance, bathrm gfci and outside recepts, ect) have to be afci protected, so that would make all smoke alarms inside a bedroom or outside a bedroom in the hallway protected by afci.

Now I may just be a student but i don't think that is completley true the '08 code says all living space such as living rooms, sunrooms, entertainment rooms, and I don't remeber but I beleive they include kitchens.

 

[dnem]

isn't in the 08 code that all circuits other than gfci protected outlets (small appliance, bathrm gfci and outside recepts, ect) have to be afci protected, so that would make all smoke alarms inside a bedroom or outside a bedroom in the hallway protected by afci.

Now I may just be a student but i don't think that is completley true the '08 code says all living space such as living rooms, sunrooms, entertainment rooms, and I don't remeber but I beleive they include kitchens.

The trigger for AFCI under '08NEC is not lack of GFCI protection. . It is based on area. . 210.12(B) Dwelling Units, list all areas except kitchen, bath, laundry, unfinished basement, garage, + outside.

 

[Flex]

Reference NEC2008
Article760.41(B) states that an individual branch circuit is required for the supply of power to the fire alarm circuit. It also states that this branch circuit shall not have GFCI or AFCI.
Article 760.1 FPN 1 states that fire alarm systems include fire detection, i.e. smoke detectors.

Am I reading too much into it?

Makes sense to me

 

[iwire]

Article 760 has absolutely nothing to do with home smoke alarms.

 

[peter d]

Article 760 has absolutely nothing to do with home smoke alarms.

Good point, the confusion stems from the difference between smoke alarms and smoke detectors.

 

[dnem]

Good point, the confusion stems from the difference between smoke alarms and smoke detectors.

You can concentrate on the words "alarm" and "detector" but as you read NEC 760 and NFPA72 Chapter 11 you're not going to see those words jump out at you as being the main point of separation.

Look for the words "single station" and "system". . And keep in mind that when one single station signals another single station thru the interconnect wire, that doesn't make it a system. . 120v single station units in a house are stand alone and fully functional by themselves. . They do their own sniffing. . They do their own screaming. . They have their own backup battery.

 

[gndrod]

smoke-alarm/detector

smoke-alarm/detector

Bob, I am inclined to agree with David on use of 'single station' and 'system' as key reference as to what Article context describes the NEC terminology of the 'smoke' and 'firealarm' differentiation secret handshake. Another example of grounding and grounded belongs in the same category.

Life Safety 101 references Section 9.6 does not give carte blanche to the Article 760 references as isolated from home use. Again, sorting out the NEC context for commercial from residential differences by using smoker vs. fire alarm do create confusion for the average onlooker. As my experience with Life Safety inspections by Fire Marshalls, their application of using NFPA 72 in private home care references 760 for code basis.

I realize it is ideal to use contextual references for understanding the difference in fire detection-alarm code usage, but it is not legitimate. rbj

 

[iwire]

Bob, I am inclined to agree with David on use of 'single station' and 'system' as key reference as to what Article context describes the NEC terminology of the 'smoke' and 'firealarm' differentiation secret handshake. Another example of grounding and grounded belongs in the same category.

Life Safety 101 references Section 9.6 does not give carte blanche to the Article 760 references as isolated from home use. Again, sorting out the NEC context for commercial from residential differences by using smoker vs. fire alarm do create confusion for the average onlooker. As my experience with Life Safety inspections by Fire Marshalls, their application of using NFPA 72 in private home care references 760 for code basis.

I realize it is ideal to use contextual references for understanding the difference in fire detection-alarm code usage, but it is not legitimate. rbj

rbj, I have no idea what your saying.

In the end, residential or commercial Article 760 does not apply to home smoke alarms. Even when they are interconnected they are not a fire alarm system.

Look in the UL white book for info. :smile:

 

[gndrod]

smoker-alarm

smoker-alarm

Bob, Home smoke detectors are when they are in parallel with related heat detection devices as in upscale residentials. SD's are part of a 'system' in that regard.

 

[gndrod]

July 4

July 4

Bob, Using 760 for commercial apps is understandable, but there are instances where residential installations do qualify as having a fire alarm system with strobes, notifier-dialer, etc. I get your point in general. Anyway, have a great Fourth. rbj

 

[iwire]

Bob, Home smoke detectors are when they are in parallel with related heat detection devices as in upscale residential. SD's are part of a 'system' in that regard.

Your mixing products.

Smoke Detectors are not the same item as Smoke Alarms

Smoke Alarms are never part of a system.

They are stand alone and can be interconnected.

They are never covered by 760

On the other hand smoke detectors that connect to a panel are covered by 760


In some areas even if you have a fire alarm system with heats and smokes covered by 760 you will still have to install smoke alarms as the laws generally require smoke alarms in dwelling units and do not recognize smoke detectors.

 

[tajaj]

bozo died lastnight